Brexit fallout

[silverfox1]

Is that all 650 or just most of them?

Most of them, there must be a few good one's amongst them, trouble is party whips pressurising them and such.

Must admit I am pretty disillusioned with British politics after this debacle.

Just read the Telegraph pulled an article about May after pressure from her campaign.

It can still be read here, not sure how long for though.

Theresa May is a great self-promoter, but a terrible Home Secretary

 

[andyb]

What you can expect from a general election is difficult to research as you are comparing a load of promises with no substance that soon turn into lies,

So no difference then.

Vote Leave
An extra £350 million a week to spend on the NHS across the UK
Tough immigration controls

Remain
Emergency budget

Both Sides
Immediate post-referendum negotiations

 

[andyb]

This make sense.

http://thebrexitplan.com/

 

[Midwest]

This make sense.

http://thebrexitplan.com/

Can't see anybody not 'Like' that.

 

[Adam W]

An extra £350 million a week to spend on the NHS across the UK

The idea of more money for nurses sounds lovely, and is a sure vote winner, but you have to consider exactly how that money is going to be spent - if you throw a load of money at the NHS it doesn't automatically mean an improvement in the food, super-fast free wifi in all wards or a reduction in waiting times, you won't be able to call an ambulance to go and do your shopping, or turn up at A&E for a free haircut, the money could all be creamed off the top by managers and bureaucrats, it could be spent on IT systems, maintenance contracts, staffing agencies or handing out free gluten-free food on prescription.

It's not that I don't think healthcare is important, but improving the NHS runs deeper than throwing money at it. It's been proven before that increasing the health budget doesn't necessarily mean improvements to service quality, so with that in mind it would make more sense to fund the improvements through streamlining, and spend some of the money saved by ditching the EU on something else.

 

[Midwest]

The idea of more money for nurses sounds lovely, and is a sure vote winner, but you have to consider exactly how that money is going to be spent - if you throw a load of money at the NHS it doesn't automatically mean an improvement in the food, super-fast free wifi in all wards or a reduction in waiting times, you won't be able to call an ambulance to go and do your shopping, or turn up at A&E for a free haircut, the money could all be creamed off the top by managers and bureaucrats, it could be spent on IT systems, maintenance contracts, staffing agencies or handing out free gluten-free food on prescription.

It's not that I don't think healthcare is important, but improving the NHS runs deeper than throwing money at it. It's been proven before that increasing the health budget doesn't necessarily mean improvements to service quality, so with that in mind it would make more sense to fund the improvements through streamlining, and spend some of the money saved by ditching the EU on something else.

|I think you've missed the irony by a country mile.

 

[Octopus]

The problems of staffing the NHS goes back a while. Why waste money on training UK people when you can import ready trained Staff?

 

[Adam W]

The problems of staffing the NHS goes back a while. Why waste money on training UK people when you can import ready trained Staff?

I don't think that's unique to the NHS - there seem to be plenty of electricians who only want fully qualified, apprentice trained staff, but they don't have an apprentice.
Likewise most employers seem to want someone who already has experience, but everyone has to start somewhere.

 

[silverfox1]

Midwest

"I don't blame him for leaving someone else to conduct the negotiations. He campaigned to remain, and we voted to leave. If he conducted the negotiations, whatever the outcome, he would of been accused of fudging it."


Midwest that is a fair point you make but if May a remainer is made prime minister we are in the same situation as if Cameron had stayed in office.

 

[Midwest]

Midwest

"I don't blame him for leaving someone else to conduct the negotiations. He campaigned to remain, and we voted to leave. If he conducted the negotiations, whatever the outcome, he would of been accused of fudging it."


Midwest that is a fair point you make but if May a remainer is made prime minister we are in the same situation as if Cameron had stayed in office.

Understand what your saying, but someone from the Remain camp had to take the blame & fall on their sword. He was in charge, so it had to be him. Shame really, cos to be PM or CEO of a company, you have to be a right *******, and Cameron is. Not sure about any of the successors.

 

[Octopus]

I don't think that's unique to the NHS - there seem to be plenty of electricians who only want fully qualified, apprentice trained staff, but they don't have an apprentice.
Likewise most employers seem to want someone who already has experience, but everyone has to start somewhere.

Spot on!

HMRC haven't allowed training to be tax deductible for years - so why invest if you can buy in?

 

[baldelectrician]

My tuppenceworth

As some of you may know I am a SNP and Scottish independence supporter (nothing to do with any bias against other parts of the UK, with the exception of the Houses of Commons and Lords)

Up here in Scotland almost all EU nationals (who could not vote in the EU referendum) voted to stay in the UK in the Scottish independence referendum (aroung 125,000 at present count). Most are likely to vote Scotlands independence when the next Scottish referndum comes

There were posters on billboards telling people to vote NO in the Scottish referendum to GUARANTEE their EU membership.

We lost the Scottish independence vote by 383,000 votes, so we require 190,000 to switch from NO to indy to YES.

Assuimng the EU nationals vote the way they indicate then thats 120,000 so far, add that to 30,000 NO voters (3/4 of the >70 year olds who voted NO in 2014) then you have another 70,000 to throw in.

The 190,000 is looking thin now.

Now you have the people who voted NO for the EU thing

My mate (a raving Tory, but a nice person otherwise) voted NO and was a firm NO. He called me to tell me he felt lied to and will now devinately vote YES in any referendum on INDY

Tie that to the increase in the polls for YES and the turmoil for the UK at present then and we have a perfect storm.

Add in a pinch of the EU wanting to give the rUK a bloody nose and the fact that Spain are unlikely to veto a Scottish EU entry (no common fisheries policy = no Spanish fishing in Scottish waters= no Spanish fishing industry).

Although it would have suited me to vote NO in the EU ref, i did vote YES as I believe in the EU (60% there, not fully convinced yet)

disuss

 

[Octopus]

Add in a pinch of the EU wanting to give the rUK a bloody nose and the fact that Spain are unlikely to veto a Scottish EU entry (no common fisheries policy = no Spanish fishing in Scottish waters= no Spanish fishing industry).

I was under the impression that the Spanish had said they WOULD veto Scottish entry to the EU. This is because they don't want Cantillionia to gain independence!

 

[Midwest]

I had the same impression about Spain vetoing Scotland. I personally think that in a second Scottish referendum it would be a 'Yes' vote. But Scotland would have to negotiate its own entry to the EU, which make take a few years. Also thing the EU 'grandeurs' might just make it difficult, as a snub to the rest of the 'remaining' UK, whatever that might look like.

But interesting to read this thread in ten years time, see who read the crystal ball right.

 

[Octopus]

I had the same impression about Spain vetoing Scotland. I personally think that in a second Scottish referendum it would be a 'Yes' vote. But Scotland would have to negotiate its own entry to the EU, which make take a few years. Also thing the EU 'grandeurs' might just make it difficult, as a snub to the rest of the 'remaining' UK, whatever that might look like.

But interesting to read this thread in ten years time, see who read the crystal ball right.

Good comments.

It's worth noting that Nicola Sturgeon has gone very quiet recently. Maybe she has bought a new set of batteries for her calculator and worked out that with the oil price so low, the Barnett formula removed, 5000 direct Labour on the Clyde heading to Plymouth, plus all the HMRC jobs heading south, the outlook might not be too rosy.....

 

[baldelectrician]

The HMRC jobs would be the ones we were promised were 'guaranteed' of we voted NO for indy....

The ship building jobs (13 frigates) have went from 13 to 8 to 0. They have paused the 8 ones until an unspecified time- yet are quite willing to push Trident ahead

Trident is now apparently obsolete due to unmanned vehicles that can seek and destroy a nuclear sub and they cost a fraction of a manned sub. I bet Westminster go ahead anyway as they need a phallus to keep their end up

Remember its all a con- and nobody really knows
One thing I am certain of the argument for remaining in the UK is poor.


One point-
If you go to a well known supermarket in Scotland and buy your shopping (the purchase and therefore the economic activity happens in Scotland) it counts as non-Scottish income. This is how they massage the figures to make us look poor

Most of Scotch whisky excise duty accrues outside Scotland - Westminster logic

 

[Octopus]

The HMRC jobs would be the ones we were promised were 'guaranteed' of we voted NO for indy....

The ship building jobs (13 frigates) have went from 13 to 8 to 0. They have paused the 8 ones until an unspecified time- yet are quite willing to push Trident ahead

Trident is now apparently obsolete due to unmanned vehicles that can seek and destroy a nuclear sub and they cost a fraction of a manned sub. I bet Westminster go ahead anyway as they need a phallus to keep their end up

Remember its all a con- and nobody really knows
One thing I am certain of the argument for remaining in the UK is poor.
View attachment 32680

One point-
If you go to a well known supermarket in Scotland and buy your shopping (the purchase and therefore the economic activity happens in Scotland) it counts as non-Scottish income. This is how they massage the figures to make us look poor

Most of Scotch whisky excise duty accrues outside Scotland - Westminster logic

so no direct responses to my points then.... face the facts - Scotland needs rUk and the Barnett formula...

 

[Midwest]

The HMRC jobs would be the ones we were promised were 'guaranteed' of we voted NO for indy....

The ship building jobs (13 frigates) have went from 13 to 8 to 0. They have paused the 8 ones until an unspecified time- yet are quite willing to push Trident ahead

Trident is now apparently obsolete due to unmanned vehicles that can seek and destroy a nuclear sub and they cost a fraction of a manned sub. I bet Westminster go ahead anyway as they need a phallus to keep their end up

Remember its all a con- and nobody really knows
One thing I am certain of the argument for remaining in the UK is poor.
View attachment 32680

One point-
If you go to a well known supermarket in Scotland and buy your shopping (the purchase and therefore the economic activity happens in Scotland) it counts as non-Scottish income. This is how they massage the figures to make us look poor

Most of Scotch whisky excise duty accrues outside Scotland - Westminster logic

I've 'heard/read' similar arguments from the other 'Referendum', some of which appeared to have been misleading.
The truth is nobody knows what will happen either way, it all boils down to what 'You' want to happen. There's that famous quote by Mark Twain 'Never let the truth get in the way of a good story', is so true now for both referendums.
This point in time will be pivotal for the country we live in now. Potentially, it has all the trappings of a new way of actuality for our various nations, disuniting the United Kingdom. Is the clock counting down?

 

[Adam W]

There have been a lot of referendums recently:
Firstly the referendum on Nick Clegg where he wanted us to vote for a system which would make it easier for the Liberal Democrats to stay in power for ever - it's easy to see why he wanted this one pushed though.

Then there was the Scottish independence referendum; this seemed to have been rushed through as well - knowing there was talk of an EU referendum and given the cost (£13.3m, source) it may have made sense to hold fire until everyone knew the long term situation.
I believe Scotland should remain part of the UK, however given the way the latest referendum went it would only seem fair to offer another with a view to Scotland rejoining the EU; hopefully the lesson of the previous referendum will be learned and a hasty exit (Scexit?) avoided until the Brexit dust has settled - in today's papers the Hungarians were talking about a referendum on not letting any immigrants in, and there have been talks of other countries holding referendums on leaving, which could see a different EU to what we have currently. One of the arguments for the UK remaining in the EU is that leaving would be casting off into uncharted waters, or like leaving a nightclub and then not being let in anywhere else. Scotland may be able to rejoin the EU alone, in it's current form, but that is no guarantee. Imagine needing a visa to cross the border between England and Scotland...

The Scottish people need to be able to make an informed decision and think hard about what to vote for, and not have judgements clouded by flag waving or ideas about getting rich from oil and whisky.

 

[Midwest]

As an aside issue, as Brexit caused a leadership change in the Conservative party, and a leadership challenge in the Labour party, I'm of the view there should be a General Election. The last GE was just over a year ago, and a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then. What do others think?