Cumbria shootings

[rocker]

Hope no one on here was involved or knew anyone involved. What drives people to that level of madness?

 

[Sintra]

Just watched the report on it.

Some total looneys about.

 

[RexT]

Hi Rocker,

No idea why and the strange thing is that he wasnt described as weird ot strange on the news just a friendly guy - makes you think I guess.
What a waste of life.
Rex

 

[mnmwill]

They do say that you never really know people, that report said he had an argument with some colleagues, looks like that set him off. Heart breaking for all the families of the victims.

 

[Spudnik]

Very sad news indeed.

 

[cbw]

I have been 'unwell' for a year now, 3 weeks ago they talked about taking my high velocity rifle off me.......1 WHOLE year...1 whole bloomin year and then they decide I may be a danger to myself or the public.....3 weeks later and I am back on the Ambulances and certified well......The whole thing needs a shake up!

 

[rocker]

The weird thing is, (here we go) is that there are a few people who have seen him, and he has seen them seeing him, but he hasn't shot them. Made me think that these incidents may not be that random, and he may have been shooting these people for a specific reason.

Isn't it frightening to think that some fella you may be havng a bit of banter with in the pub may turn up the next morning, shotgun in hand. The pressures of this modern world do some crazy things to people. Flippin' lunatics, just wish I could do something for the loved of the victims.

 

[Phil]

my heart goes out to all the family`s that are left behind to cope with such a needless end to their loved ones.

 

[Des 56]

There will always be nutters in this world, who end up killing or harming others
The tragedy here is no different to the nutter who commits a single crime
The difference being he had the tools to multiply his evil

The most tragic thing is that
The gun loving lobby caused some families to pay such a high price for their freedom to posess these tools
That freedom enabled the other tragedies before this, to be less of a lesson than society believed


Ban all ownership of these weapons I say
the price paid for the few who hold their possession dear,is the ultimate price and is not a price that should be paid

 

[UNG]

There will always be nutters in this world, who end up killing or harming others
The tragedy here is no different to the nutter who commits a single crime
The difference being he had the tools to multiply his evil

The most tragic thing is that
The gun loving lobby caused some families to pay such a high price for their freedom to posess these tools
That freedom enabled the other tragedies before this, to be less of a lesson than society believed


Ban all ownership of these weapons I say
the price paid for the few who hold their possession dear,is the ultimate price and is not a price that should be paid

I did wonder how long it would take for this Dunblane / Hungerford style ban the guns campaign / posts

There are a lot of legally held guns / firearms used in this country not only for leisure and sporting use do you suggest they are banned as well

Pity no one spoke up and banned guns in Northern Ireland when people were getting shot but all those weren't legally held

 

[rocker]

This guy's guns were illegal. He would have had them regardless of whether you ban guns, the same as the majority of gun crime in this country.

 

[Des 56]

I did wonder how long it would take for this Dunblane / Hungerford style ban the guns campaign / posts

There are a lot of legally held guns / firearms used in this country not only for leisure and sporting use do you suggest they are banned as well

/QUOTE]


My answer to that is YES they should all be banned

There are enough sport and liesure opportunities to satisfy anybodys needs without the inclusion of these killer tools
The holding and possession of private lethal weapons is one "right" that has no place in society, just to satisy the selfish attitudes of that minority of people who own these killing tools

For any circumstances that require their use, eg farmers or nature conservation,they should be permitted only when the need is absolutely necessary, and under strict paid for supervision by the police

The people killed by criminals and gunmen,sometimes by weapons held legally, have paid and will continue to pay too high a price for them to continue to have that freedom

Northern ireland was a totally different situation
Private gunslingers and a national conflict are completely different circumstances
Wars and conflict however terrible the price paid are not the same issue
This type of tragedy(again)can be influenced and the opportunity for this type of outrage be restricted even more,because whatever the restrictions now,they were not enough

 

[Des 56]

This guy's guns were illegal. He would have had them regardless of whether you ban guns, the same as the majority of gun crime in this country.

I just saw the news and he has had guns held legally for twenty years
The licences are renewable( after the period was extended) from three to five years

 

[pennywise]

If it wasn't guns it would have been a knife, eventually we won't be able to own anything as it could be deemed a danger if an unstable person got behind it , he could have just as easily have used his taxi to mow people down. Not condoning his actions for a second

 

[wallyanker]

I agree with Pennywise, what this person has done is totally unacceptable, but it has nothing to do with the availability of leathal weapons. Yes, you can ban all guns, but this will open a space for illegal shippings and black markets for guns. Its not controlling the firearms that's the problem, its controlling the minds and mentalities of people possessing one, and unfortunately that is just about impossible.

 

[confused-fuse]

i belong to a gun club i never take round back home after i have done my shooting i hand any left over back in then my gun is locked away for next time i go shooting .. if you need a licanse you need to fill a form in pay you 70.00 then wait thay do ask for medical reports to check for medical problems and to see if you have any mental problems as well..
every 5yrs its fill form in and send payment off .. i do believe thay should change the gun laws i do shoot and i have seen some people with over 10 guns in there gun safe with boxes of shot what i think is wrong if you belong to a gun club you should buy your rounds take empty cases back and any left overs for a credit note for left overs.. not take any shot back home or left in the back of the car.. i have been brought up with guns and gun clubs i have always respected guns..

the law should change simple ( stand back and get flamed now )

 

[pennywise]

Had a look at the gun deaths statistics for last year 39 murders across England and Wales involving guns, I wonder how many of them are related to people who own the firearms legally, I'm thinking that the figures would suggest that the majority of murders committed with guns were done with an illegal weapon in conjunction with gang/criminal violence, Just a guess. 28 of the murders where committed with handguns which are illegal already.

 

[Jason Smith]

Its not the guns who kill people. Its the persons who pull the triggers. So what does one do-Take away all guns so that nutters cant get hold of them, or lock up anyone who say, suffers from stress in case they can get a gun ?
Thinking about it the only possible answer is to have all guns at a registered club, not for removal. But then some persons have a right to use guns- Farmers obviously.-they have their share of stress too.
I think if someone is going to murder, then there are loads of ways of doing so, so I come down on the side of not making Guns so accesible.
My complete and utter condolences to the bereaved one cannot put into words what has happened here, just openmouthed silence, disbelief.

 

[UNG]

My answer to that is YES they should all be banned

There are enough sport and liesure opportunities to satisfy anybodys needs without the inclusion of these killer tools
The holding and possession of private lethal weapons is one "right" that has no place in society, just to satisy the selfish attitudes of that minority of people who own these killing tools

I can't agree with that statement, let's face it we all drive round in a killing tool it just happens that most of us don't choose to kill anyone with it. There are plenty of things out there that will kill how far do you want to go

I suppose you would start by banning all shooting activities including archery and other target sports as well

You seem to represent everything that the nanny state is about so when do we ban all licenced activities just to please you and the others that agree with you

 

[Des 56]

I can't agree with that statement, let's face it we all drive round in a killing tool it just happens that most of us don't choose to kill anyone with it. There are plenty of things out there that will kill how far do you want to go

I suppose you would start by banning all shooting activities including archery and other target sports as well

You seem to represent everything that the nanny state is about so when do we ban all licenced activities just to please you and the others that agree with you

Completely wrong with that statement ,it wouldn;t please me,its just an opinion
If anything I am one of the minority of people who get annoyed with government interference in our everyday lives
Personal responsibility is being destroyed by overbearing government interference in our everyday lives
I am not a pacifist either,stand and fight for what you believe is right,if that meant killing to defend my land,then it would be justified

This however is a long standing opinion I have had,having witnessed the carnage that goes with the practice of an individuas being permitted to own and more importantly store these things at their home

I am not on a crusade to get anything banned,I support the banning of guns and have little or no interest in practices that could cause harm or danger in other ways,thay are just lifes hazzards

Owning a gun is a unique freedom in my opinion and one that is not sensible in the type of society we now live in
The more guns in private hands,the greater the possibility of criminals and terrorists to get hold of them
and the more the odds of some stressed out maniac to use them
I can not consider,the trivial in comparison ,rights of gun users to continue to own these things when the banning of them could save great numbers of victims

 

[rocker]

Intresting points from both sides, but I think we all need to chill out a bit.

 

[UNG]

Completely wrong with that statement ,it wouldn;t please me,its just an opinion
If anything I am one of the minority of people who get annoyed with government interference in our everyday lives
Personal responsibility is being destroyed by overbearing government interference in our everyday lives

Banning guns would just be more overbearing regulation when to own a gun you must have a licence

This however is a long standing opinion I have had,having witnessed the carnage that goes with the practice of an individuas being permitted to own and more importantly store these things at their home

I know of Hungerford in 1987, Dunblane in 1996 and now Cumbria that accounts for 45 deaths this is hardly carnage unless you know of more while this is National Statistics Online - Road Casualties carnage

I am not on a crusade to get anything banned,I support the banning of guns and have little or no interest in practices that could cause harm or danger in other ways,thay are just lifes hazzards

So while guns are not actually used to kill that many people you would ban them but large numbers of deaths caused by other means is an accepted hazard

Owning a gun is a unique freedom in my opinion and one that is not sensible in the type of society we now live in
The more guns in private hands,the greater the possibility of criminals and terrorists to get hold of them
and the more the odds of some stressed out maniac to use them

Banning guns in the UK will not stop them coming in from Europe and beyond illegally

I can not consider,the trivial in comparison ,rights of gun users to continue to own these things when the banning of them could save great numbers of victims

Your trival comparison has little weight

Heres the stats for knife crime 2007/08 and guns are dangerous banning knives would be much more beneficial

Lets face it we all walk round with weapons our hands and feet are very good weapons and have killed many you don't hear calls to ban them

While great numbers do not appear to have been killed by guns I don't see how banning them could save great numbers of lives

 

[UNG]

Intresting points from both sides, but I think we all need to chill out a bit.

I enjoy shooting clays along with alot other people so I am going to defend guns

Apologies if it offends but facts are facts and there are alot more dangerous things in life than guns

 

[Des 56]

"Homicide rates tend to be related to firearm ownership levels. Everything else being equal, a reduction in the percentage of households owning firearms should occasion a drop in the homicide rate".

Evidence to the Cullen Inquiry 1996: Thomas Gabor, Professor of Criminology - University of Ottawa

​

"The level of gun ownership world-wide is directly related to murder and suicide rates and specifically to the level of death by gunfire."​

International Correlation between gun ownership and rates of homicide and suicide.' Professor Martin Killias, May 1993.



​

FIREARMS AND SUICIDE RESEARCH DATA​

The following data on suicide and firearms suggest that this evidence can be viewed as a warning to us in the UK that these are some of the effects of firearm possession. Most articles predict that the storage of a firearm in the home predicts an increased rate of a violent death.

That sums up my attitude on the subject and my opinion wont ever be changed,likewise yourself no doubt



​

 

[mnmwill]

I know of Hungerford in 1987, Dunblane in 1996 and now Cumbria that accounts for 45 deaths this is hardly carnage unless you know of more while this is National Statistics Online - Road Casualties carnage

I dont think you can compare the deaths caused by RTA's to the murders commited by some idiot losing his marbles.

So while guns are not actually used to kill that many people

Surely one innocent person being shot and killed is one too many

Banning guns in the UK will not stop them coming in from Europe and beyond illegally

I agree with that, trafficking would probably increase


Lets face it we all walk round with weapons our hands and feet are very good weapons and have killed many you don't hear calls to ban them

A little bit impractical

While great numbers do not appear to have been killed by guns I don't see how banning them could save great numbers of lives[/QUOTE]

Pesronally wouldnt vote to ban guns, but would like to see tighter control of firearms, people who are serious about shooting for sport shouldnt have a problem with leaving their firearms and ammunition in a gun club.

 

[rocker]

I enjoy shooting clays along with alot other people so I am going to defend guns

Apologies if it offends but facts are facts and there are alot more dangerous things in life than guns

For my two penneth's worth I own guns (only little air rifles and gas guns) and I would be on the pro side of the gun argument. I'm just saying that theres no need for us to get heated about this. I started this thread to highlight the tragedy that has unfolded, not to start arguments.

Personally I wish the media would drop this whole 'ooh his guns were legally owned' issue, I don't think it's relevance is conducive to the amount of airtime it seems to be getting. As has been said on this thread and many other places, he could just of easily have used a knife, his car, an illegal gun, an axe, bottle rockets, molotov c0cktails, a pastic bag over the head, acid, a brick, mains electricity.....

6 million ways to die = 6 million ways to kill?

 

[Jason Smith]

I think, everyone is right. There is no answer.

 

[pennywise]

No there is the PC answer and then there is the realistic answer. I do own guns and won't be giving them up without a fight but everyone to their own

 

[acat]

The weapon is not dangerous its the person holding it thats dangerous. Banning is a pointless waste of time and too many people who enjoy that type of thing would suffer because of a few. Making drugs illegal worked speeding is illegal that worked drink driving is illegal that worked and all of these including many many more illegal activities kill people everydayand banning them worked



Chris

 

[pennywise]

The weapon is not dangerous its the person holding it thats dangerous. Banning is a pointless waste of time and too many people who enjoy that type of thing would suffer because of a few. Making drugs illegal worked speeding is illegal that worked drink driving is illegal that worked and all of these including many many more illegal activities kill people everydayand banning them worked



Chris

That would be the realistic answer

 

[martysparky]

If it wasn't guns it would have been a knife, eventually we won't be able to own anything as it could be deemed a danger if an unstable person got behind it , he could have just as easily have used his taxi to mow people down. Not condoning his actions for a second

There was a Taxi driver near my location who killed his ex with a Taxi.

We all curse Taxi drivers and say things like "they think they own the road"etc.

I guess, if he had owned a gun he might have used that instead.

The abuse of power comes as no surprise as we all or most of us are aware of that potential.

so as mentioned earlier and agreeing with the above its the person or persons mental state that is the danger and therefore the method is a vent or avenue available.

I personally think there is no harm in recreation with powerful technology but if you have that means at your disposal and become sick e.g. your Mrs rocks your world and you lose it... its all to easy to use that means in your rage of madness.

But i guess as that technology is with us its not going away as Rocker stated so we have to somehow deal with it.

What kind of world are we living in???

 

[UNG]

"Homicide rates tend to be related to firearm ownership levels. Everything else being equal, a reduction in the percentage of households owning firearms should occasion a drop in the homicide rate".

Evidence to the Cullen Inquiry 1996: Thomas Gabor, Professor of Criminology - University of Ottawa

​

"The level of gun ownership world-wide is directly related to murder and suicide rates and specifically to the level of death by gunfire."​

International Correlation between gun ownership and rates of homicide and suicide.' Professor Martin Killias, May 1993.
​

​

Without reading the full inquiry reports the context of your quotes could be misleading also I find inquiry reports tend to support what they are investigating while costing stupid amounts of money

FIREARMS AND SUICIDE RESEARCH DATA

The following data on suicide and firearms suggest that this evidence can be viewed as a warning to us in the UK that these are some of the effects of firearm possession. Most articles predict that the storage of a firearm in the home predicts an increased rate of a violent death.

That sums up my attitude on the subject and my opinion wont ever be changed,likewise yourself no doubt

​

There are plenty of ways to commit suicide and on gun ownership we will continue to differ
​

​

 

[UNG]

I know of Hungerford in 1987, Dunblane in 1996 and now Cumbria that accounts for 45 deaths this is hardly carnage unless you know of more while this is National Statistics Online - Road Casualties carnage

I dont think you can compare the deaths caused by RTA's to the murders commited by some idiot losing his marbles.

You need a licence to drive a vehicle as you do for a gun. Due to the number of deaths on the road it has become less reported as it is just another RTC

So while guns are not actually used to kill that many people

Surely one innocent person being shot and killed is one too many

It sounds like an innocent death on the road is acceptable to you

Banning guns in the UK will not stop them coming in from Europe and beyond illegally

I agree with that, trafficking would probably increase


Lets face it we all walk round with weapons our hands and feet are very good weapons and have killed many you don't hear calls to ban them

A little bit impractical

I agree I was merely pointing out you don't need a gun to kill

While great numbers do not appear to have been killed by guns I don't see how banning them could save great numbers of lives

Pesronally wouldnt vote to ban guns, but would like to see tighter control of firearms, people who are serious about shooting for sport shouldnt have a problem with leaving their firearms and ammunition in a gun club.

Why should gun owners be limited to shooting at one shooting ground or gun range. A lot of gun owners shoot in competitions around the country
The UK has to relax the UK gun rules in 2012 to allow for the Olympics so are our gun laws already tight enough

 

[RexT]

Hi all,

I agree with Acat, this is reality. What is done may or may not be effective in reducing or preventing further such incidents. The truth is that human nature provides the abilitity to deliberately kill.
Surely the important thing is that some action is taken after a true careful review to try and prevent this happening?
People quote the town / city names where the killings took place and they are then remembered for it. The fact is people lost their lives for no good reason and this is truely tragic.
I was in the police at the time of the Hungerford killings by Michael Ryan, stationed at Newbury but for some quirk of fate it was my day off and I learnt of the killings in the evening on the news which was a shock. This affected me greatly as I knew the officer who was killed and I strongly feel for the people involved there.
Everyone here has a valid opinion which I respect greatly.
I just hope that something is done to prevent such happenings.

Rex

 

[rocker]

Just to interject here, the bloody media have enough to answer for, in my estimation. Time and time again they are warned by experts in these cases not to keep rolling news after the event, not to keep mentioning the number of dead, not to keep showing full-screen photos of the killer, not to go into detail about the killers past and so on and so forth.... and that's exactly what they do every time, and in a lot of these incidents (eg Columbine) we see a lot of 'copycat' incidents in the aftermath.

There's a school of thought that says the media create these psychos.

 

[Bromd123]

I did wonder how long it would take for this Dunblane / Hungerford style ban the guns campaign / posts

There are a lot of legally held guns / firearms used in this country not only for leisure and sporting use do you suggest they are banned as well

/QUOTE]


My answer to that is YES they should all be banned

There are enough sport and liesure opportunities to satisfy anybodys needs without the inclusion of these killer tools
The holding and possession of private lethal weapons is one "right" that has no place in society, just to satisy the selfish attitudes of that minority of people who own these killing tools

For any circumstances that require their use, eg farmers or nature conservation,they should be permitted only when the need is absolutely necessary, and under strict paid for supervision by the police

The people killed by criminals and gunmen,sometimes by weapons held legally, have paid and will continue to pay too high a price for them to continue to have that freedom

Northern ireland was a totally different situation
Private gunslingers and a national conflict are completely different circumstances
Wars and conflict however terrible the price paid are not the same issue
This type of tragedy(again)can be influenced and the opportunity for this type of outrage be restricted even more,because whatever the restrictions now,they were not enough

I'm sorry but I have to disagree if we followed this logic we would all end up using rubber cuttlery, rather than the knee jerk reaction of BAN all guns there should be more control of firearms coming into the country and easier registration for keeping them. If we couple these measures with extremely strict sentences for owning illegal guns i think it would go a long way to solving the problems.

Just my opinion though and everone is entitled to one

Thanks Dave

 

[R.Sparky]

This talk goes on all the time with Americans and gun laws.

There are numerous cases in America, where a person has gone on a rampage(with an illegal gun, so be it) killed a few people, then has been shot dead by an Licensed armed civilian, so if all guns were made illegal, how many would this said person of killed, probably another 10 or so.

I can't understand the feeling someone must get when a gun is pointed at them and they know they are defenceless against it.
I'm all for licensed firearms.