EICR done in 2 stages?

[surfmk]

Hi all,

Does anyone know if I can pay to have an EICR done for part of a house (so I can put plasterboard up etc... safe in the knowledge that that section of the house is OK?). I'm doing quite a large building project on 5 bedroom house.

Could I do the remaining part (kitchen) on a separate occasion? Would a failed EIRC - or loads of C3s be a permanent record on a property if for example the electrician insisted on checking the whole house? I don't mind paying for 2 EIRC but don't want to start taking down plasterboard!

Many thanks

Paul.

 

[buzzlightyear]

The Idea is the EICR to be done on the whole system, re: the circuits. Are you doing the circuits your self?

 

[SJD]

An EICR can cover whatever part of the property you wish - this can be stated in the Extent covered by the report, and the Limitations.

For example, I have carried out EICRs on part of a house, where that part is let out. So it includes the circuits in that part, but does also include the relevant distribution board / consumer unit where ever that is.

Where is gets difficult is if a circuit is partly in the rooms you want to cover, and partly in the rooms you don't want to cover. But then for example, a limitation might be that certain outlets or lighting points on a circuit are excluded - which is all very well if the circuit otherwise tests good, but if there are deficiences on the circuit to find, they could be in excluded part.

 

[westward10]

Are these newly installed circuits.

 

[tims22]

Hi all,

Does anyone know if I can pay to have an EICR done for part of a house (so I can put plasterboard up etc... safe in the knowledge that that section of the house is OK?). I'm doing quite a large building project on 5 bedroom house.

Could I do the remaining part (kitchen) on a separate occasion? Would a failed EIRC - or loads of C3s be a permanent record on a property if for example the electrician insisted on checking the whole house? I don't mind paying for 2 EIRC but don't want to start taking down plasterboard!

Many thanks

Paul.

Assuming those are new circuits going in, presumably whoever's fitting them will test the cables as installs are completed to spot any early faults? That should give you some assurance they're OK before finishing the rooms but the completed installation will need to be re-tested when everything's done to pick up any issues caused during the rest of the work... snagged cables, screws through wires, loose connections etc.

 

[DefyG]

If new circuits they should be certified on an EIC (with LA notification). not an EICR

You can have an EICR done on any 'existing' installation or part thereof from a single circuit to the whole installation.

 

[surfmk]

The Idea is the EICR to be done on the whole system, re: the circuits. Are you doing the circuits your self?

Thanks for the reply, yes I have extended a number of circuits and Building Control asked me for an EICR when the project is finished (which was a full planning job). My problem is that I need to start putting plasterboard back and although the wiring is completed upstairs, the kitchen has not been touched as yet. So in an ideal world, I would ask an electrician to do an EICR on the 80% that is complete and then do the kitchen in a month or 2 and then hand the report to BC.

The grey area for me is bonding as the whole central heating system is copper (completely replaced) and the incoming water main is PDME and Gas is copper. So I have made sure we have 10mm bonding on both Gas and water (although as every circuit is RCBO protected I might not have needed the water bonded).

I just didn't want to be told that I need supplemental bonding etc.. later when access would be really difficult (easy now).

Thanks again for your time.

 

[surfmk]

An EICR can cover whatever part of the property you wish - this can be stated in the Extent covered by the report, and the Limitations.

For example, I have carried out EICRs on part of a house, where that part is let out. So it includes the circuits in that part, but does also include the relevant distribution board / consumer unit where ever that is.

Where is gets difficult is if a circuit is partly in the rooms you want to cover, and partly in the rooms you don't want to cover. But then for example, a limitation might be that certain outlets or lighting points on a circuit are excluded - which is all very well if the circuit otherwise tests good, but if there are deficiences on the circuit to find, they could be in excluded part.

Hi SJD,

This is exactly what I needed to understand, so thanks for your explanation.

If new circuits they should be certified on an EIC (with LA notification). not an EICR

You can have an EICR done on any 'existing' installation or part thereof from a single circuit to the whole installation.

I have spoken to the head of Building Control - Brighton regarding this and the LA notification on new circuits fall under the whole LA notifiable works (of which there are many) on this project. As a result I need to have condition report(s) from a Part P certified electrician to confirm any new circuits have been completed to the required standard. So the best way I can see of doing this is to request an EICR where new circuits are highlighted and accessible (in the kitchen this is yet to happen). The condition report will become a part of the entire notifiable works on the project even though no Part P certificate has been issued.

I questioned head of Building Control (Mike Sansom) about the lack of Part P certificate as follows and his reply follows below:

In that case, if I were to employ an electrician to do a detailed condition report (but not provide a full Part P certificate) would this satisfy your requirements and be in keeping with building regulations?

Yes. The key for me is that the wiring is installed as it should be, the necessary safety features are in place and that an independent competent electrician has tested and checked the installation for safety.

 

[westward10]

Entirely new circuits require an Electrical Installation Certificate not an EICR and require notification. Alterations require Minor Works Certificates not an EICR and depending on where they have been altered may well not require notification

 

[Midwest]

I think the OP is doing the electrical work himself (as said in #2), and has been open with that to his LBC?

The LBC, as normal, do not know how to deal with this, and have suggested an EICR, which will allow a final Competition Certificate to be supplied by them, when the whole project is finished, which will incorporate the electrical installation?

 

[surfmk]

Entirely new circuits require an Electrical Installation Certificate not an EICR and require notification. Alterations require Minor Works Certificates not an EICR and depending on where they have been altered may well not require notification

I understand this is true if I didn't already have notifiable building works (which includes electrical work) being carried out at the property. I have been instructed to get an EICR from Building Control to support my documentation. They are however using this in conjunction with regular inspections which check installation locations / cable protection regulations etc...are all met.

Please see my Q&A below:

-----------------
Q: My concern is that if someone asked for certificates in future I would only be able to produce a condition report… but maybe this is all I need?

A: You would refer to the information you provided to Building Control (condition report) in order to have the work signed off. If we issue a completion certificate that includes the electrical work then you will be ok. It is not uncommon for people selling their house not to have a Part P certificate from a competent person.
-----------------

(I highlighted the critical but in italics). So, this is why my original question was... "can I get a condition report on part of an installation?". I have been asked to produce this by BC and I'd like to do this while the wiring is still accessible.

 

[nicebutdim]

I think the OP is doing the electrical work himself (as said in #2), and has been open with that to his LBC?

The LBC, as normal, do not know how to deal with this, and have suggested an EICR, which will allow a final Competition Certificate to be supplied by them, when the whole project is finished, which will incorporate the electrical installation?

Not a slight against the OP, whose work I'll assume is excellent, but this highlights the farcical nature of 'Part P regulations' when local authorities provide a means of bypassing requirements that electrical contractors are obligated to abide by.

 

[surfmk]

I think the OP is doing the electrical work himself (as said in #2), and has been open with that to his LBC?

The LBC, as normal, do not know how to deal with this, and have suggested an EICR, which will allow a final Competition Certificate to be supplied by them, when the whole project is finished, which will incorporate the electrical installation?

Yes I have been completely open with LBC and yes the final Competition Certificate does incorporate the electrical installation.
You have been a lot more efficient in your wording than I was. They need proof between their own inspectors and qualified electricians that the electrical installation is safe (but no EIC). The head of BC said (over the phone) that it was up to them how these requirements were met.

 

[surfmk]

Not a slight against the OP, whose work I'll assume is excellent, but this highlights the farcical nature of 'Part P regulations' when local authorities provide a means of bypassing requirements that electrical contractors are obligated to abide by.

I understand your point... my work is to a very high standard (electronics / mechanical engineering etc...) and I have a Site Guide but it does seem to bypass it as you say.

 

[Midwest]

Not a slight against the OP, whose work I'll assume is excellent, but this highlights the farcical nature of 'Part P regulations' when local authorities provide a means of bypassing requirements that electrical contractors are obligated to abide by.

Yes it does seem nonsensical.

I think the whole drive for regulating who should carry out electrical work, via Part P, was to stop untrained & unqualified people carrying out electrical work, in domestic properties. You don't see or hear many 'YouTube' trained companies working in the commercial or industrial market place.

Our OP's thread has proved aspects of Part P have not worked, no offence to OP.

Its the drive some people have to save money, is where we are. I hear same people say they can't trust traders to do their work, and are only confident in themselves carrying out the work. Poor state of affairs, where we can't legislate about poor trades people and those who what to save money, perhaps to the detriment of others.

 

[surfmk]

Yes it does seem nonsensical.

I think the whole drive for regulating who should carry out electrical work, via Part P, was to stop untrained & unqualified people carrying out electrical work, in domestic properties. You don't see or hear many 'YouTube' trained companies working in the commercial or industrial market place.

Our OP's thread has proved aspects of Part P have not worked, no offence to OP.

Its the drive some people have to save money, is where we are. I hear same people say they can't trust traders to do their work, and are only confident in themselves carrying out the work. Poor state of affairs, where we can't legislate about poor trades people and those who what to save money, perhaps to the detriment of others.

Hi Midwest,
I partly agree with this and no offence taken.
My thread wasn't really about this but it's gone there on its own.

I think the LA issue is historical: they were originally supposed to provide qualified inspectors which we (non-professional electrical enthusiasts) could employ to certify our work. About 10 years ago Brighton and Hove said they couldn't afford the inspectors and ceased the service. The LA recommended I employ an independent electrician to certify my work but in my experience no electrician will do this even for fully documented and accessible work...

So my inability to have my work assessed and passed has effectively prevented me from working legally on my own home which was not the intention of the law. So in some ways I see the LA's stance on my current project (2.5 years 'Grand Design') a more acceptable approach but it's only available to me under the umbrella of a very large Building Control application.

So if there are any electricians out there that fancy a trip down to Hove (Brighton) to certify my work which is currently all accessible then get in touch... I need an EICR for my BC too. I'd greatly enjoy the opportunity to discuss the whole installation.

 

[buzzlightyear]

So if there are any electricians out there that fancy a trip down to Hove (Brighton) to certify my work which is currently all accessible then get in touch... I need an EICR for my BC too. I'd greatly enjoy the opportunity to discuss the whole installation.

When some one does A eicr and the local
LBC pass it, does not mean it will be part p with paper work registration number.

 

[surfmk]

When some one does A eicr and the local
LBC pass it, does not mean it will be part p with paper work registration number.

Correct but if requested I would simply direct them to the signed off BC certificate where there will be details of EICR and any other inspections / tests (for example I will include the paperwork for the CU installed by electrician).

 

[Midwest]

Hi Midwest,
I partly agree with this and no offence taken.
My thread wasn't really about this but it's gone there on its own.

I think the LA issue is historical: they were originally supposed to provide qualified inspectors which we (non-professional electrical enthusiasts) could employ to certify our work. About 10 years ago Brighton and Hove said they couldn't afford the inspectors and ceased the service. The LA recommended I employ an independent electrician to certify my work but in my experience no electrician will do this even for fully documented and accessible work...

So my inability to have my work assessed and passed has effectively prevented me from working legally on my own home which was not the intention of the law. So in some ways I see the LA's stance on my current project (2.5 years 'Grand Design') a more acceptable approach but it's only available to me under the umbrella of a very large Building Control application.

So if there are any electricians out there that fancy a trip down to Hove (Brighton) to certify my work which is currently all accessible then get in touch... I need an EICR for my BC too. I'd greatly enjoy the opportunity to discuss the whole installation.

Part P was brought into being like other Building Regulations, 'was to provide practical guidance for some of the more common building situations, .........place a legal requirement for safety upon electrical installation work in dwellings'.

Part P defines how notification can be carried out, by self certification or third party certification. It doesn't mention using an EICR. However, it seems your LBC have deemed how your electrical work will be certified. Re you last paragraph, please note only Napit members can carry out a third party certification.

On a side note, and you are where you with your project, are you happy that you have the right design for your electrical installation?

 

[surfmk]

Correct but if requested I would simply direct them to the signed off BC certificate where there will be details of EICR and any other inspections / tests (for example I will include the paperwork for the CU installed by electrician).

Part P was brought into being like other Building Regulations, 'was to provide practical guidance for some of the more common building situations, .........place a legal requirement for safety upon electrical installation work in dwellings'.

Part P defines how notification can be carried out, by self certification or third party certification. It doesn't mention using an EICR. However, it seems your LBC have deemed how your electrical work will be certified. Re you last paragraph, please note only Napit members can carry out a third party certification.

On a side note, and you are where you with your project, are you happy that you have the right design for your electrical installation?

Hi Midwest,

Yes I'm happy with the design. I talked it through (2 years ago now) with the electrician that installed the new CU I showed him my load calculations; cable sizes; diversity for oven/hob and derating tables. At that time only existing circuits could be reconnected to the CU. All cable routing has been checked by BC inspector who is satisfied I have used correct cable protection / joist drilling and safe zones (these areas have not been connected up as yet).

I'm 6 months away from completion but very keen to have the current work tested (my only grey area is supplementary bonding which I'm almost certain I don't need). Problem is that it would be a disaster if I did need it at the end of the the project. As mentioned above, I have water/gas on 10mm bonding and the board is all RCBO. I'm getting 0.1 ohms on the radiators / copper piping (used throughout), so looks like I'm fine. But... I know there are some nuisances regarding unnecessary exporting of live through extraneous metal parts... which is where I'd like an experienced overview.

I'd like to be clear that what I've learned is no substitute for third party certification of my work and I appreciate the advice about Napit membership. I have just had a look at the Napit website and under "search" there is a category "Domestic electrical work Certification (TPC)". Maybe these are the electricians I should contact for EICR and explain I would like an overview of the work carried out in addition to the EICR? Would you recommend this course of action? Thanks for your time.