Estate Agents says Fit For Purpose

S

S Hughes

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I have no idea if I am in the right place but am in desperate need of advice. I would describe myself as a competent DIYer (installed a Scantronic alarm system last week) but when it comes to electrics I let the experts handle it.
We have just started renting a house which is just full of surprises ceiling lights positioned just above the windows IMG_20190313_182324.jpg in the house to a horrendous fire in almost the centre of the living roomIMG_20190313_182347.jpg .
Having outfitted the bare garage with all my tools I decided to power on the 25l air compressor. I plugged it into the only socket in the garage IMG_20190306_112039.jpg and it blew. No fuse, plug change or any amount of mouth to mouth would bring this faithful workhorse back to life. So I bought another air compressor and sent an email to the estate agent (acting on behalf of landlord) saying what had happened and asking can they look at electrics. They send out some guy a week later who arrives and goes straight into the garage without even letting me know he is there. I show him the old CU where nothing is labelled IMG_20190313_181914.jpg and he spends the next 15 minutes trying to work out which is the garage circuit. It turns out the garage is connected to a circuit in the house (didn't say which). I explained the new air compressor requires a 16amp socket and he talks to me as if he will inform the landlord that the garage should be upgraded to make it safe and useable. I mean who heard of a garage with only one socket? I love tinkering and renovating so need the air compressor for my air tools. My 12 year old son has taken an interest in renovating too (anything to get him off the playstation) and the AC is essential.
A short time later I get an email from the estate agents/landlord saying
The electrician has been in contact to confirm that he has checked the power socket in the garage and it is working appropriately and is fit for purpose.
Not exactly what I wanted to hear -
So my question is - Is this garage fit for purpose? If the garage is only for sheltering a car then I guess yes it is. But I look at todays specifications on power to a garage and this one falls woefully short.
It has destroyed my air compressor. I can't plug in the new one. The radio just about works. Does a garage need to have it's own RCD? Should a garage (even on an old CU) have it's own circuit? Should there at least be a fused spur or CU running to the detached garage?
Any help or advice would be appreciated as I feel totally helpless what to do next or what to say to the landlord. If I am in the wrong place politely tell me to sling my hook and point me in the right direction. Many thanks
 
Lights over windows were standard up to the early 70's.

A single 13amp socket in a garage has been the norm for years, no power at all was quite common before that.

The electrics hasn't killed your compressor, it has killed the electrics.

The fire is a bit odd but did you view the house before signing and notice it?
 
Lights by the windows are typical in 30's houses, unless upgraded. Garages with one socket are not unusual, many garages don't have any.

Why do you think your original air compressor is faulty? Certainly an underrated supply would not destroy it. It is stupid and a waste of money to replace something when you have no idea if it is faulty.

Why did you buy a new compressor that requires a 16 amp supply when you only have 13 amp sockets? Are you expecting the landlord to upgrade your supply to accommodate your non standard appliance?

Yes your garage is fit for purpose, for storing your car. It even has a socket for a battery charger.

All circuits should be on a RCD but there is no reason (apart from convenience) a garage should have a dedicated one. A garage with a single socket could be just a spur off the house ring. It usually is not done that way but there is no reason not to (again apart from convenience).
 
I don't know what to say. Some of you were nasty calling me stupid and others didn't read the thread at all.
Thank you for explaining why there is a light at the front of the window but I was merely pointing out the house was odd in so many ways to me. I noticed no one could come up with why there is a fire in the centre of the living room smart asses.

And did anyone notice the band aid on the socket? It seems you are quite happy to have a go at someone who is not an electrician looking for advice but not one of you offered anything useful or what could be done to allow me to run a 16amp air compressor.

And to answer your questions - NO I didn't put a 16amp AC into a 13amp plug. The original AC was just 25l and ran off a 13amp as it was supposed to. It ran quite happily in my previous garage
Oakdale Oct 18 (24).JPG which had a CU in it. There were over 10 sockets in this garage which ran a bank of servers.
I was asking should not a CU be labelled as to what room or circuit (lights/sockets) etc. Is that not required now for safety reasons?

As I said yes I know the garage is fit for purpose if it is just to house one car but garages these days are so much more than just a shelter for your car oh and by the way the garage is small and I cant park the 4x4 in it so in that respect it isn't fit for purpose.

As for reading the contract - we had one day to find a place before having to move because the previous landlord gave the house we were supposed to rent to someone else and we had no choice. So it looks like the landlord wins
 
Hi,i am uncertain,as whether you have put a 13 amp plugtop,on a 16 amp compressor,or adapted a 16 amp,to a single socket...

My own advice,being both an engineer,and a landlord,would be to be straight and friendly,with your landlord,and maybe offer to meet the expense of the upgrade required,using a spark he approves of.

I would be more concerned,about Stewie Griffin's time machine,in yer front room....
 
GeorgeCooke said:
Lights by the windows are typical in 30's houses, unless upgraded. Garages with one socket are not unusual, many garages don't have any.

Why do you think your original air compressor is faulty? Certainly an underrated supply would not destroy it. It is stupid and a waste of money to replace something when you have no idea if it is faulty.

Why did you buy a new compressor that requires a 16 amp supply when you only have 13 amp sockets? Are you expecting the landlord to upgrade your supply to accommodate your non standard appliance?

Yes your garage is fit for purpose, for storing your car. It even has a socket for a battery charger.

All circuits should be on a RCD but there is no reason (apart from convenience) a garage should have a dedicated one. A garage with a single socket could be just a spur off the house ring. It usually is not done that way but there is no reason not to (again apart from convenience).
Click to expand...
I bought the compressor because it said it could run off a 13amp but when looking at instructions it said it preferred a16amp. 100litres can be run off a 13 amp and some do but after my previous AC died I didn't want to take the chance.

As to calling me stupid. Not very nice or productive.
 
Vortigern said:
Caveat emptor applies I am afraid. It is up to you when buying or renting a property to ensure it will meet your purposes. Once rented there is nothing you can do to demand change on what was already there when you viewed it.
Click to expand...
Thank you. However anything is up for debate and can be changed. Look at Brexit 52% voted to leave and that's not going to happen.
 
Well you may create a new precedent at law which was in place since time immemorial. I am up for change keep us informed! Anyway I suppose I will see it in the national newspapers "Man changes ancient land laws over socket"
 
S Hughes said:
I don't know what to say. Some of you were nasty calling me stupid and others didn't read the thread at all
Click to expand...

Please keep things calm. Having reviewed the thread, one member described your actions as stupid (buying a replacement for something you don't know is broken). Unless I missed it, I don't recall seeing anyone insulting you.
 
PEG said:
Hi,i am uncertain,as whether you have put a 13 amp plugtop,on a 16 amp compressor,or adapted a 16 amp,to a single socket...

My own advice,being both an engineer,and a landlord,would be to be straight and friendly,with your landlord,and maybe offer to meet the expense of the upgrade required,using a spark he approves of.

I would be more concerned,about Stewie Griffin's time machine,in yer front room....
Click to expand...

You have the only decent reply on here. Thank you.
I have done nothing to the new compressor. There is no plug attached, just a cord. The old AC was 25l and ran off 13amp in my old house quite happily. When I plugged it in at the garage there was a spark at the socket and smell of burning. I changed fuse etc, tested if any power was getting in t the unit using a multimeter..nothing. As I was going to upgrade I bought another AC not knowing it was recommended to run off 16 amps as the literature said 13 amp.

The landlord is a conman. he knew we only had one day to find a place. After we signed the papers and moved half our stuff he contacted us and said there was major damp in the walls. Because we had no choice we had to accept this otherwise myself and my 3 young boys would have had no where to go. We were hounded from our old house and told to leave because of paramilitaries. For 3 young boys it was not the best Christmas they had ever had. So we signed the contract knowing there was damp and for another year we have to live here. I just was asking for help from here to see if there was anything I could do but all I have got was abuse and being called stupid so thank you again for not an abusive reply. As to stewies time machine that throws out more smoke than heat so it's a useless ornament in a useless house.
 
I'm afraid there's is absolutely nothing you can do. There is no spec on how many sockets or lights or anything like it a garage should have. I'm afraid if you want any work like that done then you'll probably have to pay for it yourself.
 
Hi - keeping with the garage and it's power - it turns out that compressor motors are a heavy starting load. This means it can trip circuit breakers during starting that you perhaps would not have thought. In your case it seems the circuit doesn't have the capacity you need. As the LL is happy as is, I would ask if you could engage his Electrician to add a new 32A circuit for the garage.
 
Assuming the socket is spurred directly from one of those BS3036 30A fuses I would be surprised if it ruptured it.
 
YOU as the tennant should have checked these special needs BEFORE you signed the lease, how does the agent know what you need ?
Your stuff up, not his, There is a working outlet in the garage/shed,that is reasonable and fit for purpose.
 
chris gray said:
Your compressor requires a 16A socket and you plugged it into a 13A socket and it overloaded and activated he ocpd? The electrician is right in my opinion
Click to expand...
What sort of plug came with the compressor? if it states it requires 16A have you swapped the plug over to fit the socket in the garage?
 
Pete999 said:
What sort of plug came with the compressor? if it states it requires 16A have you swapped the plug over to fit the socket in the garage?
Click to expand...
think from a previous post by OP, it came without a plug fitted, but recommended 16A.
 
another problem with theses compressors that nobody has mentioned, is that if volt drop is excessive due to long cable run or undersized cable, they refuse to start and the windings burn out.
 
Ask your landlord for a copy of the electrical installation condition report (EICR) for the property.
This should tell you if there are any defects, faults, or non compliances and it's safe for continued use.

Unfortunately it is not a legal requirement for land lords to do this, but he does have a legal duty of care to ensure his property is safe electrically. By doing an EICR this ensures it is.

Any decent landlord would get this done.

It is a recommendation to have one done every 5 years or less and change of occupancy.
 
The odd fire in room is about aesthetics, not an electrical issue.

The possitioning of the lights is also about aesthetics, not an electrical issue.

Having one socket in garage is normal. Unless you specified to the agent or landlord your requirements how could they know you wanted more.

Compresors have a very high start up kick. Difficult to comment on as the garage circuit is spured of a house circuit. I don't know what else was in use on that circuit at the same time or what size and type breaker it is on.

You've just gone through a stressful move. All moves are stressful, we all can sympathise with that.
On top of that you moved in a hurry so you didn't have the time to look for and get the property you really wanted.

It may be worth taking your time now and look for a property that would suit your needs better. This time specifying to agent and landlord your requirements.

I did get a very rare dumb from me earlier, but I'm going to remove it as its not very constructive and I can tell your in a bit of a fettle, so maybe a bit more sensitive to issues than normal.
 
telectrix said:
another problem with theses compressors that nobody has mentioned, is that if volt drop is excessive due to long cable run or undersized cable, they refuse to start and the windings burn out.
Click to expand...

And if the temperature is low and or the compressor has been standing for a while, the compressor oil will be thick and the startup current will be high.
My 2hp compressor needed a "Special" 13amp fuse to guarantee starting when cold.
 
Paignton pete said:
Ask your landlord for a copy of the electrical installation condition report (EICR) for the property.
This should tell you if there are any defects, faults, or non compliances and it's safe for continued use.

Unfortunately it is not a legal requirement for land lords to do this, but he does have a legal duty of care to ensure his property is safe electrically. By doing an EICR this ensures it is.

Any decent landlord would get this done.

It is a recommendation to have one done every 5 years or less and change of occupancy.
Click to expand...
Although these are often done for rental properties it would be highly unusual for the landlord to give the tenant a copy of it.
 
Mr Hughes,

I have sympathy for you, as I moved recently and had a not dissimilar problem.

The kitchen has a gas hob that has only two working electric ignitors and in fairness the landlord has said that he will resolve that issue - maybe a replacement hob. Now personally we prefer an electric hob, so I agreed with the landlord that if we supply the hob, he will let me fit it. So far so good, however....

When I pulled the oven unit out, I find that some ---- has installed 2.5 T&E when the house was rewired 5 years ago, and the hob requires a 27A supply. The circuit MCB has been downrated to 20A

Speak to the landlord and tell him that his cooker circuit is not suitable and will need an upgrade, and offer to do the work. However the landlord's Agent has told him in no uncertain terms never to allow a tenant to do any work whatsoever.

So on Monday the landlord's electrician shows up - only an hour and a half late - tells me that it is fine to use 2.5 T&E on a cooker circuit on the basis as the Landlord must have agreed to this when the oven and hob were installed. He decides it will take a day and a half to do the work and obviously the landlord's view on the cost quoted is why should he pay for us wanting an electric hob. I am pretty certain based on the conversations that this is the electrician who fitted this arrangement

Now I have never seen a cooker cct ever wired in to less than a 30 or 45 Amp supply and without a copy of the 17th or I cannot confirm what the requirement is for Cooker circuits and whether or not there is sufficient grounds to claim that it should have been installed to facilitate a high demand cooker. As I see it the cct MCB has been downrated and although not ideal, there is no safety issue here.

Currently I am trying to negotiate that I do the work and the landlords electrician do the testing.

Frankly it leaves a poor taste in the mouth but I am sitting with an electric hob and a wife who does not like gas. Irrespective of that I am going to have to spend my time and money bringing the cooker cct up to the required standard when this is something I should never have to do.

On the basis that the electrician turned up without a MFM and left his voltage tester at a previous job, and so worked live on the other repair jobs I wonder what other little gems await.

Unfortunately the landlord thinks the world to this long established electrician, who from what I gather has not even brought himself up-to-date with the new 18th Edition, and who charges a lot of money for crap like that.

So my friend you have my sympathies and unless you pay for it yourself or can reach an agreement with the landlord you may have to find somewhere else - or get a small generator
 
The garage is fit for purpose because it probably was ok to put a car in it when it was built, but as is often the case nowadays, older garages can't really accommodate modern, bigger cars. As an aside, I once successfully made a claim for a client who bought a brand new build house (UGHH!!) and couldn't fit his Toyota Aygo in the garage...he got several thousand pounds in an out of court settlement. However, if the single socket in the garage meets normal specs then it is fit for purpose. If it isn't safe however, then clearly it isn't. Here in Scotland landlords have to provide an EICR and provide a copy to the tenant...I think this is a good law.
 
45140 said:
Mr Hughes,

I have sympathy for you, as I moved recently and had a not dissimilar problem.

The kitchen has a gas hob that has only two working electric ignitors and in fairness the landlord has said that he will resolve that issue - maybe a replacement hob. Now personally we prefer an electric hob, so I agreed with the landlord that if we supply the hob, he will let me fit it. So far so good, however....

When I pulled the oven unit out, I find that some **** has installed 2.5 T&E when the house was rewired 5 years ago, and the hob requires a 27A supply. The circuit MCB has been downrated to 20A

Speak to the landlord and tell him that his cooker circuit is not suitable and will need an upgrade, and offer to do the work. However the landlord's Agent has told him in no uncertain terms never to allow a tenant to do any work whatsoever.

So on Monday the landlord's electrician shows up - only an hour and a half late - tells me that it is fine to use 2.5 T&E on a cooker circuit on the basis as the Landlord must have agreed to this when the oven and hob were installed. He decides it will take a day and a half to do the work and obviously the landlord's view on the cost quoted is why should he pay for us wanting an electric hob. I am pretty certain based on the conversations that this is the electrician who fitted this arrangement

Now I have never seen a cooker cct ever wired in to less than a 30 or 45 Amp supply and without a copy of the 17th or I cannot confirm what the requirement is for Cooker circuits and whether or not there is sufficient grounds to claim that it should have been installed to facilitate a high demand cooker. As I see it the cct MCB has been downrated and although not ideal, there is no safety issue here.

Currently I am trying to negotiate that I do the work and the landlords electrician do the testing.

Frankly it leaves a poor taste in the mouth but I am sitting with an electric hob and a wife who does not like gas. Irrespective of that I am going to have to spend my time and money bringing the cooker cct up to the required standard when this is something I should never have to do.

On the basis that the electrician turned up without a MFM and left his voltage tester at a previous job, and so worked live on the other repair jobs I wonder what other little gems await.

Unfortunately the landlord thinks the world to this long established electrician, who from what I gather has not even brought himself up-to-date with the new 18th Edition, and who charges a lot of money for crap like that.

So my friend you have my sympathies and unless you pay for it yourself or can reach an agreement with the landlord you may have to find somewhere else - or get a small generator
Click to expand...

Why did you accept a place with a gas hob if your wife wants electric? No sympathy I'm afraid. 2.5mm is perfectly OK for an oven which it was installed for.
 
The fire place is the centre of the room because that's where whoever installed decided they wanted it.

While a lot of LL can rb a hole sounds like yours is allright. But if you want to change things it's up to pay for the changes not your LL.
 
I use a compressor myself and feel for the chap, once you use one they become indispensable. Loss is a sad thing, we shouldn't be so hard. Sadness aside, I think perhaps it was damaged in the move - did the new compressor work on the same socket, no reason why it shouldn't do if fitted with a 13A plug. The op is right to ask this question here. Was the old compressor dated, some old motors can be more inductive and look like a short when first connected - tripping a B type mcb pretty easily - noticed more perhaps with welding machines rather than compressors. Welders are of course a different story... ;)
 

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Estate Agents says Fit For Purpose
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