Fixings to kingspan for hanging tray

[edexlab]

I've been asked to look at a method to fix tray hanging via threaded rod or something similar fixed to a kingspan roof , this is not the building roof btw but part of a machine enclosure

Normally I'd punch a small old screwdriver in and use self tappers/tekscrews to fix unistrut and hang it from this,
not the ideal but it does work
( nb punched as it gives a bit more metal surface for the screw to bite on rather than just the thickness of the metal skin if you were to drill it)

Threaded rod through the kingspan bolted above is not allowable and riveting blind rivets or rivnuts are probably not sufficient really
so I'm just checking if there are any other methods used that I've not come across/thought of
Any sensible ideas would be much appreciated

 

[edexlab]

Yeah I get all the good jobs lol story of my life!
I've done this kind of thing before, large chiller units, threaded rod through kingspan into strut above and below! in areas non visible to client plus it really was the only option!
However this product does look really good when finished so I can see why they're not keen on having strut visible on top of the cells, they'd have to hide it which is then creating more work, not the original intention!

 

[edexlab]

Drill a hole, spray water Into it, gorilla glue the rod, screw it in, leave it a day.

That stuffs the nuts, it expands into all the little holes and the threads. Should give enough for your tray.

I'm not saying your idea won't work it just doesn't sound
A) professional

B) like it'll last 20+ yrs which is the intended life of the product

No offence meant!

 

[edexlab]

Tiny I can't see the issue myself I know you can get covers for the rod and nut above , which look fine but apparently there was a problem previously which only happened on jobs where the kingspan was drilled through, I'm not sure what it was but I'm guessing a sealant may have not perfomed as it was meant to.

 

[shanky887614]

Tiny I can't see the issue myself I know you can get covers for the rod and nut above , which look fine but apparently there was a problem previously which only happened on jobs where the kingspan was drilled through, I'm not sure what it was but I'm guessing a sealant may have not perfomed as it was meant to.

if you drill with bolts in strut above to below it will be airtight, put some rubber under it if they want to create a seal as such

 

[davesparks]

Drill a hole, spray water Into it, gorilla glue the rod, screw it in, leave it a day.

That stuffs the nuts, it expands into all the little holes and the threads. Should give enough for your tray.

Apart from the bit where the solvent in the glue reacts with the fluff in the kingspan and leaves a gaping void in the middle of it you mean?

In theory both the kingspan fluff and the glue will be polyurethane, but we don't know how the liquid and solid forms will react with each other.

 

[Maddison]

Strut between walls can't be done here as it would interfere with the conveyor systems otherwise it probably would have worked.


Op said rod cannot go through to other side of kingspan.

Something like the fastbrolly, snaptoggle I've used both on board but would need to be pretty heavy duty more so than the aluminium types I've seen so may be a possibility if I can find a stronger type.
Thanks for the replies gents!

"Sky hooks" I was waiting for the idiot who was going to ignore the request for sensible answers..........
And you are it Maddison! Well done!
Must have taken you all afternoon to come up with that one!
I love a good laugh but at least think of something that isn't as old as the ark if you are going to try and be funny........................

haha you bit hard on this "sky hook" didnt you.. lets just hope.nobody is underneath all that tray when those fixings fail.. keep up the good work

 

[a1guvner]

Just a quick one to throw into the mix, i had to fix to a roof structure again about 1mm steel and we used Zipclips. Have a look at the Toggle it end that could be put through a hole, Standard Range | Zip-Clip

Might help you out

 

[edexlab]

haha you bit hard on this "sky hook" didnt you.. lets just hope.nobody is underneath all that tray when those fixings fail.. keep up the good work

Nope I don't bite at comments like that, just feel a bit for you really!

Try contributing from your own knowledge and experience instead that's the general idea of answering posts!

As this is just a theoretical exercise at the moment I think there's as much chance of my tray falling down as there is of you being funny!

Can someone let me know about this ignore button and how it works please

If its not strong enough it won't be installed ,
I'm going to road test a few different methods of fixing/s and see how they fare.

 

[Tiny Spark]

Tiny I can't see the issue myself I know you can get covers for the rod and nut above , which look fine but apparently there was a problem previously which only happened on jobs where the kingspan was drilled through, I'm not sure what it was but I'm guessing a sealant may have not perfomed as it was meant to.

I would think if the holes were pumped full of silicone or something similar it would be ok?
Or possibly some kind of resin filler?

I used to work in a pressurised clean room environment and you would be amazed the leaks we could bodge up with some silicone lol

 

[davesparks]

If it's steel sheet on the face of the king span could some sort of magnetic attachment be used?

 

[shanky887614]

I would think if the holes were pumped full of silicone or something similar it would be ok?
Or possibly some kind of resin filler?

I used to work in a pressurised clean room environment and you would be amazed the leaks we could bodge up with some silicone lol

we did a job in a cat3 lab, they builder had never done one before.

to make it even more fun, was an old room that was being converted lol, had more holes than a collinder into that room

pink foam as far as the eye could see XD

 

[edexlab]

They would never accept more holes filled with silicone the odd accident maybe but as for sealing studs I can ask but I know they won't be keen it'd definitely have to look good! , the product is high end costing @100k for a smallish system up to several million for a larger job
I'm going to see if the rivnuts they use are substantial enough as this would probably be the easiest thing for them to accept as they're already in use for other things.

 

[jaypp]

No it's not a wind up ! Genuine request for alternative ideas
Can't give pics sorry but hopefully a better description of the installation
I've been asked to look for other ways to fix cable tray in what is essentially a kingspan box, at present the install methods (not mine) are to use 6" max tray upside down and fixed to a box section frame which runs along the enclosure,
it has to go on the ceiling as there are hanging conveyors moving products around the different processes floor level is not practical as the cables would be caked in a byproduct which sets very quickly harder than concrete!

Cables go to equipment outside and within the cell
No penetrations of the kingspan is allowed as the product treatment is critical and historically there have been issues

The span between the box section is 1.5 m min 2m max and basically they're looking to turn the tray over and hang it from more regularly spaced supports fixed to the kingspan and not necessarily the box section frame if possible , this is to reduce time installing and for more flexibility in cable runs etc

I've suggested several other things already like ladder racking fixed to the frame as its more supported, or unistrut fixed to the frame across the spans but someone senior is not keen and wants other options to consider before committing to a install method
Its not carrying large numbers of cables and they are fairly small in csa.
So essentially as in the op I'm looking for a good way to fix tray rod hangers to kingspan! The install itself is fairly irrespective its a fixing method problem

Hi Edex, couple of questions that may make your problem a little easier for members to offer solutions.
How are the hanging conveyors supported or are they outside the kingspan cells?
If penetration is not allowed is this because the allowable penetration is exhausted elsewhere?
Would a support fixing system whereby a female adaptor fixed to steel allowed the male part to insert and turn 90 degrees to secure satisfy the need to reduce installation time?
I'm thinking manufactured plates with nuts to insert rod, fixed to steel via spot or chemical welding?

 

[edexlab]

The conveyors are run "inside" along a track these tend to run around the cell, so it enters runs around the processes and then leaves the cell to go to another operation the track is fixed to the box section frame this is braced between runs etc so any cable tray run generally goes down the centre if possible and/or the sides but above the items on the conveyor
As mentioned before, tray is fixed upside down to pieces of unistrut (same width as tray) drilled and tapped/screwed to box section when there is an enclosed cell /non enclosed system the tray is on top of frame
Although there aren't huge numbers of holes to do, its drilling 6mm box and tapping overhead which takes a fair bit of time to do, they don't get it done by the fabricators as things do change ie customers request etc, the idea of manufactured brackets could be possible,
I have done a rough design which goes in the gap between the kingspan and box (3mm max) problems is it looks like a rough g clamp (cuz it is) and takes longer to make than to do the threaded holes, there are no products available I'm aware of which can do this
also it doesn't solve the issue of runs away from the frame, I'm hoping the rivnut idea will work as the jobs are built tested and stripped before shipping to destination where they are obviously recommissioned so this would be ideal.

 

[Tiny Spark]

So what happened with this in the end then?

 

[Barry White]

Will they not go for plastic trunking and plastic conduit ? it can be screwed to the kingspan directly and siliconed to it as well for extra security. looks neat and matches the white face of the kingspan cheaper and easier to clean too.

 

[ETAS]

How about rivnuts? subject to the weight of course

 

[edexlab]

Plastic Trunking has been tried before but the lid comes off in some environmental settings of the cell as some types are just not suitable when there are different temperatures being used ie in higher temps it becomes soft then theres the contraction/expansion as products with different settings are run.

Rivnuts is probably going to be what I'll use as its a product they already use elsewhere so they are familiar with its use
I'm looking at doing a run along one wall of kingspan as the tray on brackets (side on rather than angle/gallows brkts) there has a low load, but still waiting for a decision from the bosses re hanging the tray right side up on the ceiling ,they'll take their time before saying yay or nay!