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Unless the falling tree and deserted forest are within a vacuum a sound will be created, however great or small that may be, that is for certain. So it all comes down to how good the observers sound detection is.
Archys question about whether anything actually exists has been bothering me. I shall return to my world between Tellytubby land and Middle Earth to ponder over that one.
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Read my post regarding sound.... the falling tree will create pressure waves through the various mediums around it, it is not a sound until it hits the ear drum it is mearly a pressure wave so if their is no eardrums to translate the pressure wave into what is heard as sound then it has no sound, its just atoms bouncing together in a wave pattern.
Again dont try blend basic school physics with quantum theory or you'll just confuse matters, school teaches us about sound waves but they are not sound waves but pressure waves, sound waves dont exist in their own context of the word.
Example... close mouth and hold nose and blow, your ears will 'pop', this is because the pressure has change in the ear canal and the ear drum has changed shape in response hence you hear a pop; a sound!, now no 'sound wave' was ever created you just altered the pressure in you ear canals.
Its can be a hard concept to understand especially when you are taught about sound waves at school but these pressure waves can't be tagged with the term sound wave until they have been heard and even then its a misleading name as they are still pressure waves, you can usually translate these pressure waves easily through air and water, but consider solid steel that has vibration when you touch it yet you hear nothing, it is vibrating thus it has pressure waves running through or oscillating within it now you wouldn't normally call the vibration a sound wave but put it against your ear and and the vibrations (pressure wave) will be translated into sound if within 20hz -20khz frequency.
 
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Read my post regarding sound.... the falling tree will create pressure waves through the various mediums around it, it is not a sound until it hits the ear drum it is mearly a pressure wave so if their is no eardrums to translate the pressure wave into what is translated as sound then it has no sound, its just atoms bouncing together in a wave pattern.
Again dont try blend basic school physics with quantum theory or you'll just confuse matters, school teaches us about sound waves but they are not sound waves but pressure waves, sound waves dont exist in their own context of the word.
Example... close mouth and hold nose and blow, your ears will 'pop', this is because the pressure has change in the ear canal and the ear drum has changed shape in response hence you hear a pop; a sound!, now no 'sound wave' was ever created you just altered the pressure in you ear canals.
Its can be a hard concept to understand especially when you are taught about sound waves at school but these pressure waves can't be tagged with the term sound wave until they have been heard and even then its a misleading name as they are still pressure waves, you can usually translate these pressure waves easily through air and water, but consider solid steel that has vibration when you touch it yet you here nothing, it is vibrating thus it has pressure waves running through or oscillating within it now you wouldn't normally call the vibration a sound wave but put it against your ear and and the vibrations (pressure wave) will be translated into sound if within 20hz -20khz frequency.
Spot on DW. I think that's one of the biggest problems with the way we teach, we seem to like paradigms. Like the old event/observer model to explain things, in practice an observer is nothing more than another event (it just happens to be in a sensory organ). But it's easier to explain that way.

Sound is just like light, it has no mass (supposedly....I'll come to that in a mo). It radiates out from a fixed point until it's quanta is released (either by an event ("colliding" with an object) or observer).

Now the quandry (latest thinking is a photon has no mass, it's just energy)....if light has no mass how come it is affected by the gravity of a black hole?
 
I take it you've been to the pub as well (not buying that one) ;)
No! no beer for me tonight, its an often asked question in quantum physics but although at first its seems like it going to be a brain-buster it really is a straight forward concept, photon is like any other boson in that its a force carrier (excluding Higgs Boson as this is like a central piece linking quarks, leptons and bosons). The fabric of space time although still an unknown concept is affected by gravity and warped in some way, photons even though massless in the standard model still permiate through space time if the light travels long enough it also has red shift because over the billions of years the universe has expanded stretching space time and thus also stretching the waveform of the photon, this in itself hints that it is effected by anything that would stretch spacetime.
 
Browse the Quantum physics forum Des .... now even i get totally confused in there lol
 
No! no beer for me tonight, its an often asked question in quantum physics but although at first its seems like it going to be a brain-buster it really is a straight forward concept, photon is like any other boson in that its a force carrier (excluding Higgs Boson as this is like a central piece linking quarks, leptons and bosons). The fabric of space time although still an unknown concept is affected by gravity and warped in some way, photons even though massless in the standard model still permiate through space time if the light travels long enough it also has red shift because over the billions of years the universe has expanded stretching space time and thus also stretching the waveform of the photon, this in itself hints that it is effected by anything that would stretch spacetime.
I had been to the pub :) Yep, seen that proposal and it explains the photon being "bent" towards the singularity. The model used is like a marble rolling on some "cloth" (the space/time) that's been streached down at one point forming a funnel like structure. That doesn't explain why no light comes out of a black hole in any of the explainations I've seen though, any clues from your reading?
 
Now TQ you are entering the territory of debate and depending on your following and theories depends on the answer you want to accept. When i say light has no mass this isn't strictly true, what is meant by this is light has no rest mass, but because light has momentum it does in effect have mass imbued to it but we are talking a very small amount, also to consider that light approaches a blackhole at the speed of light and crosses the event horizon it could be argued that with it momentum it goes into an orbit as such, other ideas to look at are the laws of physics break down near the centre of a black hole so we cant truely use what we know to predict behavour..... another angle is light takes several minutes to reach earth from the suns surface but aprox 170 000 years to get from the centre to the surface of the sun due to its density so consider a blackholes density and in effect it could stop light, i assume atoms etc have a upper energy limit too before they are torn into their constituant parts this would also hinder if not stop light in its tracks. Consider a black object with little or no reflection in your hand shine a torch on one side, the photons wont be seen on the other side nor really reflected... energy of the photon is absorbed and turned into heat and radiation of differing wavelengths and 10yrs ago it was found that black holes do emit large amounts radiation on a axis to the spin. Light is electro-magnetic radiation so in a nutshell the radiation spewing out of blackholes is too just not in the visible spectrum we see.

I not saying if any which idea is correct but these are amongst many out there and sometime you just have to live with the fact we cant always give a 100% answer.
 
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Time dilation effect from the black hole slowing time down? IE So if we were able to wait long enough then light might eventually emerge. Or, maybe the frequency has changed so it's no longer visible EM.

This is wrapped up in the which model does light have question ... particle versus wave, the momentum would be attributable to the photon as a particle (as opposed to a wave "rippling" outward). Not sure I can get my head around a wave model when it approaches a black hole ... then some of it would "go in" and some not.

I've seen an article recently on entangled photons being used for photo voltaic effects. More than one electron out per photon in!
 
Quantum Physics Forum have a peruse at this, but be warned this is a forum tight on rules and really need a understanding to join in the debate as alot of them have degree's etc in said subject even some of the cern' crown are on here but it still makes good reading for someone on the same wavelength (or is it a particle?)
 
This is all well and good lads, im totally getting what your saying......but how do you propose to explain....... Spidey sense then?! I mean, he neither "sees" nor "hears" any given event specifically, the relevant photons required to register the act as a sight or a sound may be miles away, yet somehow....he just "knows" whats going on.


I dare you fancy pants quantum physics dabblers to try and nail that one down
 
I read watch and study this subject because it is absolutely fascinating
We as a species are rolling back frontiers of understanding that would be inconcievable even as late as the eighties


Its a damn shame that whilst being able to get a grasp of some of what I see and hear on the subject,its like having the proverbial black hole in my head,it drains away any understanding I imagine I had within moments of it becoming something that could be described as comprehensible to me

I am going to look at that forum, as long as there a few curtains I can hide behind whilst taking a peek :uhoh2:
 

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