I have not been paid, what shall I do

[123]

I hope you get paid. But I hope you have changed how you do things as well. Should look at getting staged payments on the job, especially if you are there for 6 months on and off.
And to let it go for 2 years is mental.

I've been caught by someone going bankrupt and a couple of little none payers since I went out on my own 8 years ago. With the bankrupt I was back of the queue to get paid as he owed HMRC a fortune.

Also been caught (sort of) on a new build. Basic terms 60% after 1st fix, 40% when complete. She held first fix monies back as 1st fix not complete as the Sun Room wasn't wired. It hadn't been built yet. Got paid in full eventually, but still...that is what you are up against some times!

 

[PEG]

He initially brought the material to begin with, I brought some to complete second fix. The £5000 is actually £5700, this is for the work that I have done coming in and out over 6 months.

Hi,so you did 6 months of work without resolving payment?

With the greatest respect,you may have assisted your customer in believing he could get away with anything.

I genuinely hope you get payment,satisfaction or both,but going off the facts so far,i stand by my feeling that the chances are slim.

Do not get carried away with some of the more lurid,laddish pub-talk...it will only bring the kind of trouble,which your opposition deserves

 

[Octopus]

Also been caught (sort of) on a new build. Basic terms 60% after 1st fix, 40% when complete. She held first fix monies back as 1st fix not complete as the Sun Room wasn't wired. It hadn't been built yet. Got paid in full eventually, but still...that is what you are up against some times!

I tend to bill per room complete .......... this avoids issues like this.

 

[baldelectrician]

I had a landlord who owed me £150 3 months ago.
He told I wasn't getting my effin money
Sent him an invoice
Sent him a 7 day notice

Send each item twice - once recorded and once 'proof of postage' (the second you get a receipt with destination details).
This was they cannot say they didn't get the post

He paid within 4 days of the 7 day notice

 

[pirate]

My tuppence worth, from my previous life...
You should have got a solicitor in much earlier. The documentation and records would have been clearer, and led to an easier resolution in the court. Different criteria apply here in Scotland, but the advice is the same...get a solicitor on it right away.
Also, make sure you have a contract, and one which specifies that the materials are and remain your property until paid for. This will not protect "heritable" or "real" property where the degree of annexation is such that the equipment, cables etc are fully integrated into the building, but DBs and CUs would probably be deemed moveable property. I would favour a lock on the DB...demonstrate everything works, then pull the plug, lock it, and hand over the key on payment!
A client once told me how he ensured payment for his work as a stonemason...he cut and fitted all the stones for an archway he had dismantled and moved to a new location for the Local Authority, then asked for the 1st instalment of his payment, this having been agreed in advance. They didn't pay. He, however, had marked all the stones, and had the key to them on a sheet of paper...
They gave in!

 

[dksanders]

If I have a customer who doesn't pay, I don't mess about but go directly to MCOL. It's painless, adds the cost to the debtor, and once they get the court paper work through, it often scares them into paying. If they don't pay, not only do they end up with a CCJ against them, but if they try to sell the property, raise money against it etc, the Land Registry will flag up that there is an outstanding debt on it which will have to be settled first.

However, I can't understand why you left it so long, don't do so again; however you have 6 years to get his sorted so do so now, hit him with MCOL, do not use a solicitor unless MCOL fails as you'll be paying through the nose for something that can be done without that extra cost.

 

[sham]

If I have a customer who doesn't pay, I don't mess about but go directly to MCOL. It's painless, adds the cost to the debtor, and once they get the court paper work through, it often scares them into paying. If they don't pay, not only do they end up with a CCJ against them, but if they try to sell the property, raise money against it etc, the Land Registry will flag up that there is an outstanding debt on it which will have to be settled first.

However, I can't understand why you left it so long, don't do so again; however you have 6 years to get his sorted so do so now, hit him with MCOL, do not use a solicitor unless MCOL fails as you'll be paying through the nose for something that can be done without that extra cost.

Can you please explain the process.

 

[telectrix]

read this:
Make a money claim online - https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim

 

[kjw32]

Have twice used the small claims court. Is simple if not a bit daunting on the day. On both occasions the judge is looking for flaws on each side. If you've been truthful you have nothing to fear. I have come away winning both times with the other party clearly having to lie to try and win. The judges's are not fools and will not let someone get away with not paying for work done correctly. Use all your emails and text's in your evidence.

 

[Marti]

WOW! Typed "debt collection" into the EF search and immediately realised this a bigger issue than our old favourites - "Which MFT, What Van and Why Apprentice". Should probably be in the OUR training. I'll read the above carefully before taking action. Essentially, I now have a situation with good records and high enough value to be worth retrieving. I'm an ST, subbed to a small Ltd. All work attended was notified by email to me daily. Invoiced from Quick books monthly with an Excel sheet detailing expenses et-cetra.

My wife's in and out of hospital, being tested for Leukaemia ATM so going use this period to nail down a process for future use - no more business on a handshake.

Advice and experiences appreciated.

 

[baldelectrician]

For anything above what you can throw away (£100) I send a quote in writing with terms and conditions
I also record telephone calls (and clients know this) which helps.
I had a client two months ago who refused to pay a £46 bill, I sent him a 7 day notice telling him he would be taken to court after the specified date
He paid at 10.50 at night - 2 hours before the expiry of the 7 day notice.

 

[dksanders]

Wether I've given a written quote (which always has my T&C's attached) or a verbal one, I always send a written invoice, with payment due on receipt (I'm not rich enough nor in the game of, providing credit to people). If that's not paid I use MCOL, the costs of which, plus interest, are added to the summons the court issues. I'm running my electrical business, I haven't time to waste chasing debtors so let MCOL do it for me.

 

[Dan]

WOW! Typed "debt collection" into the EF search and immediately realised this a bigger issue than our old favourites - "Which MFT, What Van and Why Apprentice". Should probably be in the OUR training. I'll read the above carefully before taking action. Essentially, I now have a situation with good records and high enough value to be worth retrieving. I'm an ST, subbed to a small Ltd. All work attended was notified by email to me daily. Invoiced from Quick books monthly with an Excel sheet detailing expenses et-cetra.

My wife's in and out of hospital, being tested for Leukaemia ATM so going use this period to nail down a process for future use - no more business on a handshake.

Advice and experiences appreciated.

So sorry to hear about wifey. Hope she's okay.

It always worries me when I see threads like this. I'm glad this one is from 2018 and not a fresh one, which worried me for a second then!

Well worth always talking about so that people are aware. So good on you for replying to it.
[automerge]1568997543[/automerge]

Wether I've given a written quote (which always has my T&C's attached) or a verbal one, I always send a written invoice, with payment due on receipt (I'm not rich enough nor in the game of, providing credit to people). If that's not paid I use MCOL, the costs of which, plus interest, are added to the summons the court issues. I'm running my electrical business, I haven't time to waste chasing debtors so let MCOL do it for me.

That's the way to go these days.

 

[Marti]

Returning to this as neither my August or September invoices have been paid or challenged. One of the themes that ran through this was "act without delay" so that's what I'm doing. One polite reminder and a communication to Thomas Higgins (mentioned above).

Thank you for the advice and kind words about wifey's leukaemia results - still testing.

 

[SparkyHarry]

Returning to this as neither my August or September invoices have been paid or challenged. One of the themes that ran through this was "act without delay" so that's what I'm doing. One polite reminder and a communication to Thomas Higgins (mentioned above).

Thank you for the advice and kind words about wifey's leukaemia results - still testing.

Sorry to hear about your wife and that you are still chasing payments. I usually send a recorded letter or email. Then you have proof of your communications.

 

[Marti]

As suggested above, I've now raised a case with Business Debt Collection & Recovery Solicitors | Thomas Higgins Limited - https://www.thomashiggins.com/

The website takes a few basic details and there are two starting points. In plain English, The letter before action chasesfor just the debt amount but if you wish to issue and add on compensation and interest then the late payment demand letter can be issued.

I'll report back on how it goes so others can make a decision as to whether their service suits.

 

[Risteard]

As suggested above, I've now raised a case with Business Debt Collection & Recovery Solicitors | Thomas Higgins Limited - https://www.thomashiggins.com/

The website takes a few basic details and there are two starting points. In plain English, The letter before action chasesfor just the debt amount but if you wish to issue and add on compensation and interest then the late payment demand letter can be issued.

I'll report back on how it goes so others can make a decision as to whether their service suits.

Why are you not demanding statutory interest and compensation?

 

[Marti]

Why are you not demanding statutory interest and compensation?

Oh, I certainly am
The way the, very wordy, website explains it - if you wish to retain a working relationship with the debtor then a letter-before-action is a firm nudge without legal action. If you just want to get paid with a little comp' added then go straight to legal and the late-payment-demand is the way to go!

There were a number of excellent suggestions in this discussion and I chose this one but we'll see how it goes and I'll report back as it appears to be something every trade goes through.

Interestingly, I have only ever had problems when subbing to other sparks operating two or three sub's. My current contractor has been excellent but he is the exception, not the rule in my experience.

 

[SparkyHarry]

Oh, I certainly am
The way the, very wordy, website explains it - if you wish to retain a working relationship with the debtor then a letter-before-action is a firm nudge without legal action. If you just want to get paid with a little comp' added then go straight to legal and the late-payment-demand is the way to go!

Do you wish to retain a working relationship though? What if it happens again?
Its not fair on you to have to go through this, even if you do get your money and a little compensation, he still gets away with it.

 

[Marti]

Certainly not planing to maintain any connection with the debtor-contractor; why would anyone put themselves in that position twice! One of the risks others need to be aware of is how big and fast the costs mount up to collect a debt. As well as the debt, I'm now owed hundreds in costs so can not afford to let this go at nearly £6k. Unravelling the layers of limited company and who's a director will probably cost more. Starting to look at £20-30k PAYE as a good, reliable deal. Be careful out there guys; it's not just the amps that bite you in the a**e!

 

[Dan]

This is a handy thread for me to link to from the other forums too. We see this a lot, and many just give up which is a real shame.

 

[Marti]

Whatever I learn I'll post here, with pictures for the plumbers
Seriously, It's isn't just the money that is effectively stolen; it means a decent, honest plumber, sparks, plasterer et-cetra is disadvantaged like it's not hard enough to make a living.

 

[Baddegg]

Whatever I learn I'll post here, with pictures for the plumbers
Seriously, It's isn't just the money that is effectively stolen; it means a decent, honest plumber, sparks, plasterer et-cetra is disadvantaged like it's not hard enough to make a living.

Shame I can’t award three different emojis @Marti...the plumber comment killed me .....I completely agree with and like ya post good luck mate

 

[naylorpd]

Unravelling the layers of limited company and who's a director will probably cost more

It doesn't have to cost anything if you do some basic research yourself.
Go to Companies House service - https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/, input either a company name or the name of anyone that might be a director

You will get a list of similar names so might need to dig around to find the right one, but look for things like the registered office (on the overview tab), or directors names (on the people tab).

On the Filing tab, look for confirmation statement/annual returns - the latest one that says "confirmation statement with updates" will tell you who owns or controls the company.

If the Confirmation statement says that the company is controlled by another company, repeat the search for the controlling company, repeat until you find a real person's name.

On the Accounts tab, the latest financial statements will also confirm the directors and may have worthwhile financial information (though this is increasingly rare these days due to the thresholds being quite high).

Also look out for big debts against the company on the Charges tab.
All for free.

 

[Marti]

Thank you - I'll run with that and see what i can achieve.

 

[Marti]

Tuesday is the next deadline. Heard nothing yet so I'll prepare to do battle in-front of the officials and see what happens. Printed a tree-and-a-half in support of my argument but this is new to me and, probably, familiar to my opposition. Father Christmas won't think he's been a good boy!

 

[Baddegg]

Tuesday is the next deadline. Heard nothing yet so I'll prepare to do battle in-front of the officials and see what happens. Printed a tree-and-a-half in support of my argument but this is new to me and, probably, familiar to my opposition. Father Christmas won't think he's been a good boy!

Good luck @Marti keep us posted!?

 

[Pete999]

Good luck @Marti keep us posted!?

Have a look at this

you got your troubles - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.

www.bing.com

 

[Marti]

A classic - thanks Pete
As expected, my claim has been challenged. Won't say too much in open forum but I am up against a practised debtor / bankrupt so taking nothing for granted and seeking advice on how to present myself / my case. Solicitor is an expensive option. I will bullet point everything learnt for others to use ....once I've done me learnin' (ouch)

 

[Marti]

This has not been resolved and I expect to face the debtor in court in later this year. Even so, this is where I've changed the way I work. Just a couple of pointers that might help others.
1) Start every single interaction with a client on the basis that you might end up in dispute. No texts, use email, WhatsApp or even a paper and pen (camera-copied)
2) Confirm any changes using the above.
3) Very few of us like conversations about money. Practise it and get the "how much and when" communication up front.
4) Photographs before and after will help your memory and add weight to your case in the event of a dispute. This has saved me from progressing to dispute more-than-once.

I'm confident I'm presenting a good, honest and well-recorded case for payment and compensation. I am also adopting the approach of "even if I lose I'll be wiser next time" so will certainly progress this to court.

 

[Marti]

This has not been resolved and I expect to face the debtor in court in later this year. Even so, this is where I've changed the way I work. Just a couple of pointers that might help others.
1) Start every single interaction with a client on the basis that you might end up in dispute. No texts, use email, WhatsApp or even a paper and pen (camera-copied)
2) Confirm any changes using the above.
3) Very few of us like conversations about money. Practise it and get the "how much and when" communication up front.
4) Photographs before and after will help your memory and add weight to your case in the event of a dispute. This has saved me from progressing to dispute more-than-once.

I'm confident I'm presenting a good, honest and well-recorded case for payment and compensation. I am also adopting the approach of "even if I lose I'll be wiser next time" so will certainly progress this to court.

So....
That was written in January 2020. Such halcyon days; pre-covid awareness. When I looked for advice on the Small Claims Court there was very little and even the legal profession didn't want to know. I spoke to a local office and they gave me 30 minutes free advice. Everything else is my records and my wife's diligence. I thought I add a few words here in the hope it help someone in the future.

The end result...I won the full claim with costs and, somewhat to my surprise, the debtor paid. That a practiced bankrupt paid rather than hide behind "no assets-LTD" was a shock. In terms of stress and lost hours, the whole process is hell with most of the stress being caused, not by the opposition but but the court system and inconceivable levels of both under investment and general incompetence.

As I said above, keep good records and photograph everything. Keep your written argument short, accurate unemotional and to the point. Don't be tempted to add, exaggerate and let your written submission talk for you on the court day.

Oh, and if anyone tells you SCC is easy so just "get 'em in court"! Ignore them; odds are that they haven't actually ever progressed one to court as a small business / ST. I've found a good few of those.

 

[LukeD]

Well done!

Slightly different story .But I know a lady who rents out a flat in Cornwall . Its her only income. She has not received rent for 16 months . And is in fear of the courts etc if she throws the guy out etc. In The papers last week a guy had the same issues but after 5 months threw the tenant out . Was taken to court and fined very very little . Far cheaper than doing it the legal way !! I think some of these None payers really think people will give up the idea of legal action and wont take "Civil" ? action against them .

 

[Mike Johnson]

Bit late in retrospect, but I always had Landlords insurance, it paid me if the tenant did no pay up.

 

[LastManOnline]

Oh, and if anyone tells you SCC is easy so just "get 'em in court"! Ignore them; odds are that they haven't actually ever progressed one to court as a small business / ST.

Glad to hear your case is resolved. From experience taking a case to court is a complete lottery. Would highly recommend avoiding it if at all possible. The solution I recommend is by insisting (via contract) of money in ADVANCE throughout the contract. If a customer has an issue with this (I only experienced one in the last 10 years) I simply walk away.
I do a 50% deposit, 20% after first fix, 20% after second fix and final 10% on handover of cert. Works a treat.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Or do as all sub-contractors under the JCT contracts with main contractors, apply for payment against a valuation at the end of each month/week whatever you have agreed, not unusual to have a seven day payment terms.

 

[LukeD]

Try asking for deposits or stage payments and some people look at you as if we are mad . Social media is full of "let the trade fund the job 100% " and many believe this to be gospel

 

[Pete999]

Try asking for deposits or stage payments and some people look at you as if we are mad . Social media is full of "let the trade fund the job 100% " and many believe this to be gospel

Send the Boys around for a stiff talking to.

 

[Baddegg]

Glad you got things sorted @Marti...I’m just about to take AO.com to small claims for non payment ?

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Yes, there seem to be new options now that I was not aware of. Anyway thank you to everyone who has replied. Would anyone like to know the outcome of the route I take and results ?. As it could help others.

How was your outcome Sham?

 

[BLBelfast]

Didn’t want to start another new thread but my situation is finished a large house rewire apart from an unfinished bathroom and was in process of testing on Friday. Over the weekend the customer checked the “Register of qualified “ electricians and couldn’t find my name so refusing to pay final payments and I’m getting a bill for a qualified electrician to sign off. Job is satisfactory. I’m an approved gold card spark with all possible other cards and 20 years in the industry so will be quite surprised if any anything is found bar no blanks in the consumer unit.(supplied by customer)

Have I got the gist that I should send him an itemised invoice. Which I have. In 3 days send a final demand then apply on line to small claims court 28 days later?

He’s also going to report me to trading standards as I’m not an electrician apparantly. As I’ve said there is nothing in the job that could have worried him and no prior dialogue of any concerns. Sent me a message on Thursday saying what a great job I had done