Discuss Kitchen installer expanding. in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

davesparks

Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
13,305
Location
guildford
Definitely food for thought guys however were not expanding per say, more looking at ways to be more efficient and offer a more rounded service. I'd love to be in a place where I could afford more staff but from a cost to benefit perspective were probably not there yet.

The point about cutting corners probably says more about some 'kitchen fitters' than the trade generally, some kitchen fitters cant fit a worktop for example, that's just not how we work. Quality first.

One thing that has sparked my interest about the short courses not offering the correct qualifications, the training providers we have spoken to are saying the complete opposite, the line they are giving us is, employee will be qualified to C&G level and all the would need would be building control or third party sign off following works.

There seems to be a disparity between the previous comments and what the training providers are saying and I'm wondering what I'm missing?

Thanks for the input guys.
Training providerd are running a business, they will tell you anything and everything they can to get your money.

As far as short courses go, would you employ a kitchen fitter who has done a few weeks training in a classroom and has no real world experience then send them out on their own without any supervision from experienced fitters to fit kitchens?
If you send your fitters on this course then they will get taught the basic theory, none of the real world practical and then when they are working they will have nobody experienced to supervise them.

The other problem is the course will only teach them how electrucs is done in the ideal world of the textbooks.
The hardest part of the electrical a work in a kitchen refit is often unpicking the existing installation and working out how to make it safe before installing the new electrics. A short course will never be able to teach you how to safely deal with the hundreds of different bodges and DIY messes you will encounter in the real world.
 

Paignton pete

Regular EF Member
Messages
978
Location
Over the rainbow
I’m also a late comer into electrics. I’m 47. I also didn’t take the apprentice route.

12 years ago I did the C& G 2&3 ( 3 years, 2 full days a week)

I realised 5hat wasn’t enough to start working out there on tools so...

... I did the domestic installer thinking it would give me that experience to actually do the job.
10 weeks 1 evening a week.

It was a real disappointment. If I hadn’t done the C&G prior I would have been lost. Most guys on course hadn’t and just didn’t have a clue.
No one failed. You pay your money you paid for a pass.

Course basically gave enough to do minor works but no more. Replace or add a socket or light to existing circuit and do testing with MFT.

I then spent 2 years working with sparkies I know and doing minor works. This is when I really learnt my stuff.

Then I got registered and since then I’ve done
2394, 2395, 2396, ev charger. And any free seminars available.
I actually love learning which is why I’ve been succes#ful.
 

richy3333

Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
2,133
Location
North West Scotland
3 weeks learning gets you this. Says it all really. Appleby boxes used as surface pattress boxes. Cooker switches used as an isolator to a fixed load. SWA hanging and ripping the CU part. Line hanging out of main switch. No bonding to gas or water. Allegedly he spent 3 days polishing this turd.
IMG_0063.jpg

I'd not employ a kitchen fitter in my home after doing a 3/5/8 week course.
 

GBDamo

Subscribed Member
Messages
918
Location
UK
3 weeks learning gets you this. Says it all really. Appleby boxes used as surface pattress boxes. Cooker switches used as an isolator to a fixed load. SWA hanging and ripping the CU part. Line hanging out of main switch. No bonding to gas or water. Allegedly he spent 3 days polishing this turd.
View attachment 51293

I'd not employ a kitchen fitter in my home after doing a 3/5/8 week course.
How did you find out it was a short course "electrician" that did that.

Ive had to go back to remedy similar from a time served spark, granted one that couldn't give a fig, effectively the boots i filled. Still stumble on his little droppings feom time to time.

Dont assume that some thing done wrongly is done by someone who doesn't know any better, quite often they do, they just don't care.
 

richy3333

Mentor
Electrician's Arms
Trainee Access
Messages
2,133
Location
North West Scotland
How did you find out it was a short course "electrician" that did that.

Ive had to go back to remedy similar from a time served spark, granted one that couldn't give a fig, effectively the boots i filled. Still stumble on his little droppings feom time to time.

Dont assume that some thing done wrongly is done by someone who doesn't know any better, quite often they do, they just don't care.
I found out because I asked him and he went around telling everyone he was now a spark because he'd been on a 3 week course. I have a witness to our conversation. He's also proud to be Part P 'registered' which is useless in Scotland as we have different Regs. That photo is a small snapshot of the things this bloke did wrong. I've literally hundreds of photos and videos of his handiwork as we had to remedy it. This is a 3 phase 200A supply.

I dont want to derail the thread and I appreciate there's good and bad in all aspects of training but I have an apprentice just starting his second year and it reminds me (I trained 20+ years ago) how much you learn doing the training the proper way. I also appreciate that I see more bad work around my area from the short course 'electricians' than proper apprentice trained ones.

Hopefully in Scotland protected title will come in sometime soon (next few years) as there is momentum for it to do so and in time will weed out these people from the industry. I can but be hopeful.
 

Baddegg

Still simmering Ken, not boiled yet buddy x
Electrician's Arms
Messages
1,402
Location
Portsmouth
I found out because I asked him and he went around telling everyone he was now a spark because he'd been on a 3 week course. I have a witness to our conversation. He's also proud to be Part P 'registered' which is useless in Scotland as we have different Regs. That photo is a small snapshot of the things this bloke did wrong. I've literally hundreds of photos and videos of his handiwork as we had to remedy it. This is a 3 phase 200A supply.

I dont want to derail the thread and I appreciate there's good and bad in all aspects of training but I have an apprentice just starting his second year and it reminds me (I trained 20+ years ago) how much you learn doing the training the proper way. I also appreciate that I see more bad work around my area from the short course 'electricians' than proper apprentice trained ones.

Hopefully in Scotland protected title will come in sometime soon (next few years) as there is momentum for it to do so and in time will weed out these people from the industry. I can but be hopeful.
People like that would always produce work of quality work regardless of the amount of training they receive....they are born lazy...
 

anthonybragg

Electrician's Arms
Messages
4,452
Location
NORTHAMPTON
I already had some electrical experience, plus many years working in construction, had educated myself to an extent, and never went straight in at the deep end, more a slow gradual, ongoing immersion. The course gives the basics but real world experience is key - the advise during the course was get experience with an experienced spark.

If people are led to believe they can go from zero to hero in the duration of the course, they'll be disappointed. That said, for me and the range of work I do, it was an adequate starting point.
Pretty Mouth For what you posted you have taken a level headed approach please note my comments were not aimed at anyone in particular.
 
Last edited:

JK-Electrical

Politically Incorrect
Electrician's Arms
Messages
929
Location
Glasgow
I found out because I asked him and he went around telling everyone he was now a spark because he'd been on a 3 week course. I have a witness to our conversation. He's also proud to be Part P 'registered' which is useless in Scotland as we have different Regs. That photo is a small snapshot of the things this bloke did wrong. I've literally hundreds of photos and videos of his handiwork as we had to remedy it. This is a 3 phase 200A supply.
The day I was undercut by a wetpants for an EICR job was the day that I realised just how far down the pan our industry has gone. This joker considered himself to be an electrician solely on the basis of him having completed a two-day BS 7671 course and having passed the open-book exam. I kid you not. Scary stuff indeed.
I dont want to derail the thread and I appreciate there's good and bad in all aspects of training but I have an apprentice just starting his second year and it reminds me (I trained 20+ years ago) how much you learn doing the training the proper way.
Like this?


There is no substitute for experience. Experience cannot be bought at any price and it certainly can't be obtained via any short course. Experience is everything in our game, and it comes only with years of hard graft, application and dedication. And therein lies the problem. Some people desire only to make as much money as possible in the shortest time possible with as little effort as possible. Do a short course to get a foot on the bottom rung of ladder by all means, but don't ever delude yourself that five weeks later you've climbed to the top and are now an electrician ready to begin making some serious bucks.

I respect members such as Paignton Pete and Sparky Chick who have used short courses as a springboard to greater things. I tip my hat to those amongst us who have gone on to do higher-level courses, devoted themselves to several years of dedicated study, and who have gained experience the hard way by initially working for nothing as a spark's mate, or for little financial reward. That's real sacrifice. That's real commitment. That's real dedication. That's a real statement of intent.

I commend those who have taken this approach and have gradually evolved to become professional electricians. Take a bow. But for those who are motivated solely by financial gain and care not about anything else, least of all working within the scope of the regulations, I hold in contempt.
I also appreciate that I see more bad work around my area from the short course 'electricians' than proper apprentice trained ones.
Alas, this has been my experience too. Wetpants, kitchen fitters and bathroom fitters are the culprits more often than not. The standard of 'workmanship' that I've seen from these guys in the greater Glasgow area is truly horrendous. These guys are proof-positive that short courses don't work when those doing them couldn't give a **** about anything other than making a quick buck. However, the fact that several members of the forum have used short courses as an entrance to the industry then gradually progressed upwards provides evidence to the contrary.

Ultimately, for those who hold a burning desire to become electricians and are willing to commit themselves to achieving this goal and make sacrifices along the way, short courses must be viewed in a positive light. But when short courses are enabling charlatans to enter our industry and bestowing credibility upon cowboy operators, short courses can be only detrimental.
Hopefully in Scotland protected title will come in sometime soon (next few years) as there is momentum for it to do so and in time will weed out these people from the industry. I can but be hopeful.
SELECT's campaign for protection of title for Scottish electricians is now unstoppable. Support continues to grow, and it's a matter of when it happens, rather than if. The sooner, the better.

https://www.select.org.uk/four-more-politicians-back-selects-wall-of-support

SELECT Managing Director Alan Wilson believes that regulation of the electrical industry is vital if we are to improve safety for both domestic and commercial consumers across Scotland. I share that belief.
 
Last edited:

KennyKen

Electrician's Arms
Messages
363
Location
Australia
Yeah I agree with the success stories of sparkies applying themselves who have undertaken the short course route. These short courses don’t exist here in Aus. So they are very puzzled when you have these conversations.
 

Midwest

Electrician's Arms
Messages
11,675
Location
Oxfordshire
@thebartman, whether it’s a short course electrician or one that has served an apprenticeship, I would suggest you keep looking for a competent electrician or company of.

A lot of my work in the domestic market was kitchen & bathroom refurbishments. I was regularly used by the same company for the work, and I subbied to another electrical contractor who worked specifically for another kitchen company. I even got approached by another kitchen company, when I did some repairs for them. Had to decline them because of the work load it would of generated. So I understand your frustration.

As the others have said, you need experience & knowledge, not just qualifications. You just have to keep looking.

I know some other kitchen installers have taken your route for business reasons or just to make more money, but ‘we’ don’t think it’s a very professional approach.

I know of a plumber on another forum who does bathrooms, who does all the electrical 1st fix, and gets a 3rd party sparks in to test etc. But the two don’t always follow that procedure, and it’s apparent from pics & description that the regs are not properly followed. I don’t understand people running a professional business, and taking short cuts like that.

Customers pay good money to have work carried out in their homes; they should expect to receive a professional finish.
 

Intoelectrics

Regular EF Member
Messages
246
Location
Midlands
When I registered about 9 years ago nic insisted on 2 years on tools relevant electrical experience , however I am gobsmacked to discover that is no longer the case on reading the registration criteria.
GBDamo you are quite correct.

Wow.

Not sure what more to say about that.
I'm not surprised :rolleyes: the schemes are there to make money, if they are too stringent on the criteria for registration then they will lose potential members thus money!
Gone are the days when being a time served fully qualified experienced trades person carried some weight.
 

Intoelectrics

Regular EF Member
Messages
246
Location
Midlands
@ The Bartman,

There is nothing wrong with gaining the qualifications required and personally I don't worry too much about whether its from a short course or not. The capability & aptitude of the person doing the course is far more important. But there is no substitute for experience! I learnt 90% of my electrical knowledge from experience (good and bad) and am still learning 30 years later.
I'm multi skilled, plumbing, joinery engineering... I've fitted umpteen kitchens, bathrooms... knowing how to correctly install the electrics is absolute paramount especially during the design process. The electrician needs to have a good understanding of the current install per job and be able to identify potential problems and offer solutions to ensure it's done to the minimum requirements set out in the current regs. This can only be attained by experience.
 

Permanent unswitched live colour?

  • Brown

    Votes: 59 66.3%
  • Black

    Votes: 30 33.7%

Electrician Talk

Electrical Forum

Welcome to the Electrical Forum at ElectriciansForums.net. The friendliest electrical forum online. General electrical questions and answers can be found in the electrical forum.
Top