Labour Manifesto

[DPG]

As I say, give them the vote (again) and see what happens.

 

[Zerax]

I disagree
Thats like saying let's watch the rest of the UK jump off a cliff and see what happens
Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU and are (rightly) getting a differential deal, Scotland voted by a larger margin to stay and are being draged out
This wait and see is in essence undemocratic- it is saying to te Scottish Parliament - you cannot decide if and when you can leave, sit down, shut up and know your place. Democracy is what Westminster says and Westminster can pick and choose which parts it uses.

There is a March for independence in Glasgow on 11th January, the last one had over 100,000 ( equivalent to 1m in London as Scots are less than 10% of the population) yet received little or no coverage in UK media and was on RT, France 24. Euronews, German TV etc.

Firstly... can you please stop repeating that line about "jumping off cliffs" !!! It is simply highly emotive language used to scare people... that hasn't worked on most people, but seems to have scared you.

Secondly... the EU referendum was for the whole of the UK... no option was given to have locally implemented results. So it doesn't matter what the vote was in Scotland, Salisbury, Scarborough or indeed St Albans. The latter, if you remember, has just elected a Lib Dem MP... on a mandate of cancelling Brexit. So do you now suggest that we build a 30' high fence around that city and allow them to declare their allegiance to Juncker and co. ??

And lastly... please do enjoy your march on Jan 11th. In case it wasn't explained to you properly... it's all irrelevant. You may have 100,000 attend but what about the 100,000 that don't attend ?? the ones that want to remain in the union ?? If you want to demonstrate the will of the people you need to organise a referendum. Oh, hang on you already have... and it said remain. When will the penny drop ??

 

[baldelectrician]

Firstly... can you please stop repeating that line about "jumping off cliffs" !!! It is simply highly emotive language used to scare people... that hasn't worked on most people, but seems to have scared you.

Secondly... the EU referendum was for the whole of the UK... no option was given to have locally implemented results. So it doesn't matter what the vote was in Scotland, Salisbury, Scarborough or indeed St Albans. The latter, if you remember, has just elected a Lib Dem MP... on a mandate of cancelling Brexit. So do you now suggest that we build a 30' high fence around that city and allow them to declare their allegiance to Juncker and co. ??

And lastly... please do enjoy your march on Jan 11th. In case it wasn't explained to you properly... it's all irrelevant. You may have 100,000 attend but what about the 100,000 that don't attend ?? the ones that want to remain in the union ?? If you want to demonstrate the will of the people you need to organise a referendum. Oh, hang on you already have... and it said remain. When will the penny drop ??

Northern Ireland voted to stay in and are (rightly) staying so there is a locally implemented result there, if it is possible there it is possible in Scotland

Thank you for telling me democracy in Scotland is irrelevant my point is that the duly elected Scottish Parliament has voted for and requested a referendum
It's nice democracy where a country enters a union with a larger partner and can only leave when the larger 'equal' partner deems permission.

We had a referendum in 2014 and were told explicitly that if we voted NO to independence we would guarantee our place in the EU

I know you don't like the cliff scenario but that's a difference of opinion, Scotland and the rest of the UK are in a voluntary union and Scotland (through her parliament) has decided we want to put that choice to the people in 2020 (or the following year)

 

[Zerax]

Northern Ireland voted to stay in and are (rightly) staying so there is a locally implemented result there, if it is possible there it is possible in Scotland

Thank you for telling me democracy in Scotland is irrelevant my point is that the duly elected Scottish Parliament has voted for and requested a referendum
It's nice democracy where a country enters a union with a larger partner and can only leave when the larger 'equal' partner deems permission.

We had a referendum in 2014 and were told explicitly that if we voted NO to independence we would guarantee our place in the EU

I know you don't like the cliff scenario but that's a difference of opinion, Scotland and the rest of the UK are in a voluntary union and Scotland (through her parliament) has decided we want to put that choice to the people in 2020 (or the following year)

You seem to be living in a parallel universe...

NI are not staying in the EU... they will leave alongside Wales, Scotland and England. You might have confused yourself with the transition arrangements that have been constructed in such a way as to allow the EU to agree to remove the 'backstop'.

I have never said that democracy is irrelevant in Scotland... I said that the referendum was for the whole of the UK and that individual areas cannot elect for different treatment. (read back to my example of St Albans)

It would appear that you'd like to have a Scottish independence referendum every year until you get the result that you personally agree with. That's an odd kind of democracy !

It would be highly beneficial for the Scottish people, if the Scottish government used their authority to properly govern Scotland (in areas like education and health) rather than pursue the sole issue of a 'neverendum' ! Scotland have vast devolved powers, but have chosen to use very few of them.

 

[baldelectrician]

You seem to be living in a parallel universe...

NI are not staying in the EU... they will leave alongside Wales, Scotland and England. You might have confused yourself with the transition arrangements that have been constructed in such a way as to allow the EU to agree to remove the 'backstop'.
NI are effectively in the UK and the single market / customs union and they will have (correctly) a chance to vote on keeping it through the assembly at Stormont whilst Scotland cannot have a vote despite the SNP having yet another win whilst having a 2nd indyref in their manifesto
Whilst you are on about how many votes do we want.... the answer is as many as the democratically elected Scottish Parliament wish to vote for.

I have never said that democracy is irrelevant in Scotland... I said that the referendum was for the whole of the UK and that individual areas cannot elect for different treatment. (read back to my example of St Albans)
Scotland is not an 'individual area' it is (apparently) an 'equal partner in the UK family of nations' as an equal partner Scotland will have the right to change her mind as the circumstances change

It would appear that you'd like to have a Scottish independence referendum every year until you get the result that you personally agree with. That's an odd kind of democracy !
Like the 'odd' democracy where Westminster politicians wanted a 2nd EU referendum, or where the Conservative UK government brought the leave deal back on several occasions- so it's OK for Westminster to change their mind as long as the pesky Scots know their place?

It would be highly beneficial for the Scottish people, if the Scottish government used their authority to properly govern Scotland (in areas like education and health) rather than pursue the sole issue of a 'neverendum' ! Scotland have vast devolved powers, but have chosen to use very few of them.

• The Scottish Government use the powers they have, they have control over :
• Local rates - they have exempted lots of small businesses from rates (something the UK government are only talking about)
• They have changed the income tax system so now people earning under £26993 will pay the same or less tax than the rest of the UK. People on the minimum wage are better off. They control less than 25% of the taxes (only PAYE earned income)
• They changed the building standards in 2007 and 2014 to prevent and effectively ban the cladding used in Greenfell from being used in Scotland.
• The control some aspects of benefits (only 15%) but they have stopped using ATOS and introduced a carers supplement as well as payments to reduce child poverty.

Detailed above

From the map below (this is from the past few weeks) you can see that Scotland is now not in the UK / EU top areas for poverty

Scotland has very little powers (and over 100 have been removed in the past year), we need out of the UK as the UK is politically right wing and Scotland is politically left wing.

 

[rapparee]

You seem to be living in a parallel universe...

NI are not staying in the EU... they will leave alongside Wales, Scotland and England. You might have confused yourself with the transition arrangements that have been constructed in such a way as to allow the EU to agree to remove the 'backstop'.

I have never said that democracy is irrelevant in Scotland... I said that the referendum was for the whole of the UK and that individual areas cannot elect for different treatment. (read back to my example of St Albans)

It would appear that you'd like to have a Scottish independence referendum every year until you get the result that you personally agree with. That's an odd kind of democracy !

It would be highly beneficial for the Scottish people, if the Scottish government used their authority to properly govern Scotland (in areas like education and health) rather than pursue the sole issue of a 'neverendum' ! Scotland have vast devolved powers, but have chosen to use very few of them.

You are quite correct, NI is de jure staying in the UK customs union, however they will de facto be in the EU customs union and regulatorily aligned with all European laws.

This is why the DUP are concerned about an border in the Irish Sea.

 

[Midwest]

Why doesn’t Scotland wait to see how Brexit pans out, then if it’s a disaster, have a indyref, leave and rejoin the EU?

 

[baldelectrician]

Why doesn’t Scotland wait to see how Brexit pans out, then if it’s a disaster, have a indyref, leave and rejoin the EU?

Why stay when most Scots WANT a referendum (the % of people who will vote for indy is on a knife edge at present) where there IS a mandate for a 2nd indyref.

On my own personal side I would rather have the 2nd indyref in 2020 or 2021 for several reasons

1. The UK will be out of the EU and then the EU will markedly change their public opinion on Scotland re-entering / staying in.
2. People in Scotland will have had more Boris as PM (and will wake up and smell the coffee)
3. Labour in Scotland are going through a crisis - several MSP's and a former Labour Scottish first minister now support the mandate for a 2nd referendum on indy
4. 50,000 people pass on each year in Scotland- the demographics are changing as more older (> 70% NO to indy) voters pass on and they are replaced with people who will either vote YES or not vote at all. The longer Boris waits the higher the YES vote is likely to be.

Much as I respect the UK's decision to leave the EU it was not a Scottish decision (Scotland voted 68% to stay in the EU)

Sometimes when your 'partner' is making something you believe to be a mistake you can persuade them, but if opinions cannot be reconciled then its either an agree to disagree or part the ways on a matter such as this.

Former First Minister says Scotland is being treated with contempt

The last few years have solidified my belief in Scottish independence - we need out and to be good neighbours not stuck in a relationship where we are forced to stay- like the Hotel California (Scotland can check out any time we like but can never leave)
[automerge]1577368388[/automerge]

People in Scottish Labour have to realise no one owes them a living any longer

Why can’t the Labour party, with its great history since 1900, come up with an alternative that can counter independence...

www.holyrood.com

more

 

[Midwest]

So you agree with me to stay, see how things progress, if it’s pants have your vote then.

Why does the SNP want to do it the other way?

 

[baldelectrician]

So you agree with me to stay, see how things progress, if it’s pants have your vote then.

Why does the SNP want to do it the other way?

No, I do not agree- I want a referendum and to leave the UK no matter what

The SNP want the power to have a referendum in the Scottish Parliament and then the Scottish Parliament can hold a referendum when they want
It's a matter of principle- the Scottish Parliament should retain control over ALL Scottish matters, not just the ones handed down by our overlords

I just want Scotland out of the UK- no more Tory governments- Scotland has not voted Tory since the 1950's yet suffers Tory policy and austerity

 

[Midwest]

Fair enough, been nice knowing you.

 

[Baddegg]

It was the United Kingdom that voted....not England not Scotland not wales and not northern island....the U.K. as a whole voted on brexit

 

[baldelectrician]

Fair enough, been nice knowing you.

I am not anti English, just anti-Westminster
I want Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK to be less of a master servant (like we have now) and a equal neighbour (like that between the UK and the Republic of Ireland).
We don't want 'special' treatment just equal treatment
[automerge]1577372541[/automerge]

It was the United Kingdom that voted....not England not Scotland not wales and not northern island....the U.K. as a whole voted on brexit

Yep and that's fine - the UK can leave the EU, but Scotland can decide to go a different path- then we all get what we want.

 

[Baddegg]

Not while it’s part of the uk it can’t, surely we should ALL have a vote on who leaves and who stays then? After all it affects us all not just the Scottish....

 

[rapparee]

Not while it’s part of the uk it can’t, surely we should ALL have a vote on who leaves and who stays then? After all it affects us all not just the Scottish....

That doesn't work. It's like the EU member states voting to keep the UK within the EU. It affects them too.

That train of thought is very dangerous. Surely the idea of self declaration is safer.

 

[Baddegg]

That doesn't work. It's like the EU member states voting to keep the UK within the EU. It affects them too.

That train of thought is very dangerous. Surely the idea of self declaration is safer.

I’m inclined to agree with that @rapparee, but this is effectively breaking up a country

 

[rapparee]

I’m inclined to agree with that @rapparee, but this is effectively breaking up a country

I understand where you're coming from but I wouldn't worry about it.

The break up won't exactly be the end of the world. Scotland will still be there. I can't see them building hadrian's wall to keep the British out. Obviously an independent Scotland's closest friend will be England.

God knows what will happen here in Ireland. Brexit threatened to re-partition the country but now it looks like there will be a border in the Irish sea. Which isn't great, personally I depend on next day delivery fro RS Components to keep machines running.

 

[Darkwood]

Northern Ireland is only in a transitional period until the end of 2020, this is where the EU and the UK must accept either the failure of talks and go into WTO or agree a deal, NI is been treated different only on a short term basis because of the tensions between its volatile political status of which Scotland does not have, to say they are getting something while Scotland is been deprived is taking the situation out of context to an extreme, it still stands we all went as one nation into one vote to honour the will of the people on the understanding that we had the consent of the loser, regardless of what list you provide with regards to Scotland having made positive steps you fail to address the fact that most of that list is the same throughout the UK, you also have failed to reflect on the major elephant in the room, your deficit is 3 times higher than the rest of the UK, you are heavily shored up by the rest of the UK and you have no way of making up that shortfall unless you left while heavily taxing Scottish people, the charts I refer to were produced by the SNP themselves so again I ask, how do you expect to bridge a massive 10% prop up as well as putting been cut away from the new world trade low tariff or tariff free deals the UK already has in the bag.... I am one for been a nationalist and proud of your country but biting your nose of to spite your face is a life long scar to bare... if you can justify your position baldelectrics I would be the first to agree with you but all I here is ignorance of how our voting system works as four nations and rhetoric of Sturgeon which is mostly misdirection from the reality and baseless.
[automerge]1577377127[/automerge]
I will add NI under the current agreed deal will be out of both the customs union and the free market, they will only be subject to customs regulation if the receive goods external to the EU and wish to pass them on to the EU, this account for a small percentage of their trade but the pro EUers out there make it sound like thay are having the best of Both worlds, this is not anywhere near the truth, this is totally different to the maybot agreement that many still believe is the proposition here.

 

[ferg]

Not everyone who voted SNP wants to leave the UK.

Brexit was a on the cards before the Indyref.

Promoters of Indyref2 are banging on about it incessantly in the hope of getting their own way at a time when nearly everyone is disillusioned with politics. Traditionally a time when people vote for odd things.

We had a referendum and we voted to stay in the UK.

For me that's enough time and effort wasted on it for now.

Perhaps the politicians we elected should spend their time and effort dealing with the clear social problems we have in Scotland and less time blaming someone else.

 

[littlespark]

Maybe London should be an independent country and the rest becomes the UK?
Totally different economic conditions there.

The Queen can move out to the midlands somewhere.


Merry Christmas. Goodwill to all, and all that.