rcd protection- barber shop

[J.C.E]

afternoon guys

think i know answer to my question but wanted to double check

my barber (quite friendly with him so wanted to help him out!) asked me to do his barber shop eicr (only a small 6way c/u) anyways just had a brief look and its an old board with wylex push in reto 60898s- no rcd protection

the shop is ground level

would you guys c2 no rcd protection to socket outlets or with commerical is it different?

head says it just same as it would be for domestic so c2

 

[Devonchris]

On site guide. 3.6.2.

Omission of RCD Protection

In the following circumstances.

Non domestic premises, where a documented risk assessment determines that RCD Protection is not necessary.

 

[buzzlightyear]

http://www.cfecltd.co.uk/files/pdf/17_edition_factsheet_02.pdf
you need to read this. it will help you
I would put down no rcd protection c2

 

[Stspark]

C2? Making this once compliant barbers shop an unsatisfactory installation?
It's C3, providing satisfactory earth fault loop values and no sockets likely to be used with external equipment.

 

[J.C.E]

always though it was a c2 if on the ground floor and had a chance of an extention lead being taken outside etc

 

[buzzlightyear]

always though it was a c2 if on the ground floor and had a chance of an extention lead being taken outside etc

did you read the post 3#

 

[Stspark]

If a non rcd protected socket was right by an external door and likely to be used for outdoor equipment C2, otherwise C3 for the ground floor sockets. (Providing acceptable EFLI readings obtained)

 

[Stspark]

@buzz I believe the above document is irrelevant, the op is asking about an EICR not a new install.

Also the document is not current, its pre amendment 3.

 

[buzzlightyear]

he needs to read the information regs 411.3.3 regs 522.6.8 .
and non domestic installations( and it still stands weather yesterday or tomorrow). eicr or eic

 

[westward10]

No Codes today my Regs have blown away
The company will pay
Who took my Regs away.

 

[Octopus]

what a farce........................... How old is the installation?

That said a barbers shop, with plug in accessories and water ................. RCD would be a good idea............

 

[buzzlightyear]

Also the document is not current, its pre amendment 3.

it stills stands

 

[Stspark]

Think you need to have a read through the current regs mate. Skilled and instructed persons are a thing of the past.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Skilled and instructed persons a thing of the past.

forget skilled &instructed persons
read what it says post 3#.read between the lines .

 

[Stspark]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? You stated above you'd C2 sockets without RCD protection, which in general is incorrect for domestic or non-domestic.

 

[Ian1981]

Are they likely to be using Portable /mobile equipment outside?
Do any unprotected sockets give rise to danger?(external influences)
This would influence my choice of code

 

[buzzlightyear]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? You stated above you'd C2 sockets without RCD protection, which in general is incorrect for domestic or non-domestic

it is down to the test engineer what he thinks at the time .

 

[buzzlightyear]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? You stated above you'd C2 sockets without RCD protection, which in general is incorrect for domestic or non-domestic

it is down to the test engineer what he thinks at the time .

 

[westward10]

Tis not the socket which gives rise to danger but appliances using said sockets. Don't worry about the ifs and maybes the fact is they have no rcd protection and this is the statement of fact you use, Code it, move on.

 

[Ian1981]

Perhaps if it's sunny they cut hair outdoors with mounds of extension leads trailing about

 

[buzzlightyear]

or with out extension leads out side .

 

[MerlinGremlin]

I'd bring it up to current regs and put a split load board in, the equipment being used is all handheld used day in day out by an unskilled person and members of the public will be in the premises. What's the point in having regs if no one is willing to bring old installs up to current regulations? Otherwise they'll be installs 20, 30, 40 years old that aren't to current regs but loads of C3's which never get done!

 

[Stspark]

it is down to the test engineer what he thinks at the time .

I agree, can't really give a definitive answer without personally being at the installation.
However (in line with numerous electrical bodies) also can't generalise socket outlet's no rcd protection as C2. And in doing so declare thousands of older domestic and non-domestic installations as unsatisfactory.

 

[buzzlightyear]

Emmerdale on, put the kettle on .

 

[DPG]

Emmerdale on, put the kettle on .

Plug it in an RCD protected socket though. Don't go electrocuting Mr. Wilkes.

 

[Rpa07]

Plug it in an RCD protected socket though. Don't go electrocuting Mr. Wilkes.

Mr Wilkes? you're talking as old as the unprotected installations in this thread - nay, nay - that'll not do!

 

[westward10]

If one can't make such a rudimentary decision then steer clear of EICRs.

 

[static zap]

.......................... How old is the installation?

That said a barbers shop, with plug in accessories and water ................. RCD would be a good idea............

If there are no stocks in freezers -to spoil ,
or things than despiratly need recharging overnight .
Pushing for RCD sounds more than sensible
(if a fault develops at night , shop is more likely to still be there - electrics full of hair)
(It's the reason regs tighten --Improve )

 

[The Ghost]

Do the insurers think there should be RCD protection? And do the manufacturers of the shavers say the equipment is recommended to be used with an RCD? Just wondering. But I would go with C3 as there would no doubt be a significant improvement to safety for the barber and customers. Maybe RCD sockets?
I can't really see there is a likely danger taking into account the history i.e. how many people have been harmed for lack of an RCD? Probably none. Given the caveat of post no. 4

 

[DPG]

The clippers and hairdryers get a huge amount of wear and tear on the flex near the appliances with all the constant moving about. This puts the risk of shock at a higher level than most portable appliances. Just something to bear in mind generally.

C3 with a tin hat for me Mr. Wilkes.

 

[Dave OCD]

J.C.E - I'd explain the value of upgrading the board to your mate the barber, a dual RCD unit wouldn't break the bank, but if finances are tight and the circuits test out ok an upfront RCD would be a definite improvement pre EICR, and of course said RCD could have been there for quite some time... This could avoid a close shave in the future.

 

[Ian1981]

J.C.E - I'd explain the value of upgrading the board to your mate the barber, a dual RCD unit wouldn't break the bank, but if finances are tight and the circuits test out ok an upfront RCD would be a definite improvement pre EICR, and of course said RCD could have been there for quite some time... This could avoid a close shave in the future.

Yep that's about the short back and sides of it ........

 

[MerlinGremlin]

This is where the regs need to be more difinative, everyone has different opinions of what coding to give and should a board be upgraded, personally myself I recommend upgrading to a split load or RCBO board due to the fact that most cables are less than 50mm depth and there's more and more technology being plugged in and used, more garden equipment like lawn mowers and strimmer etc. Plus it brings it up to current regs, sooner or later installs need to be brought up to current regs otherwise they never will.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

C3 if equipment to be used outdoors can not be plugged into it.

 

[davesparks]

I thought the reference to equipment used outdoors had disappeared from the regs?

 

[buzzlightyear]

we need to close this thread hair to gone tomorrow.

 

[Baker1988]

Without actually being there and seeing all the variables it a bit difficult to say but more then likely a C3 from me

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I appreciate that using equipment outdoors is a significant factor for specifying RCDs or coding an installation that lacks them. But being pragmatic for a moment, hairdressers use electrical appliances constantly, handheld sometimes with damp hands, pressing the exposed metal parts against their customers' bare skin and often rubbing against the flexes. They are then stood inches away from running and splashing water and often amongst cutting tools. Some of the appliances may be grey imports, I have often seen them used with unapproved adaptors. The hedge trimmer and lawnmower are probably still more worthy of RCD protection, but hairdressing must rank fairly close. Whether that has any impact on the boundary between C3 and C2 is another matter.

 

[Rpa07]

You make a barbers sound like a war zone Lucien! I think I'll grow my hair from now on! At least until the 18th is out!

 

[NDG Elecs]

What's the difference between a barbers and a hairdressers.... Does this place have any instantaneous water heaters? Even if it doesn't and it's an old school barbers with copies of razzle and sawdust on the floor I would be tempted to C2 it. More info required in my view; grey imports and wear to flex etc have been mentioned, but at the end of the day you use your experience and discretion. I appreciate it may be a tip top pme (or other) install with superb Zs's, but without more info it's hard to code it accurately. I don't think in this instance, if applicable, the issue of outdoor equipment is that relevant. I would be far more concerned with the constant activity within the barbers itself.