Rogue Installers

[Worcester]

Hi All,

What do you guys reckon is the best way to deal with local rogues?

I have just done a quick trip around 4 recent installs in our area, and without exception I can find serious fault with each and every one of them just from a ground level visual inspection.

The most common one by far is insufficent distance from either eaves, apex or roof edge, in some instances they are actually overhanging, the other faults are: large gaps unders slates (or tiles) as they have just put a slate back in instead of flashing (grinding out), mounting panels in landscape and anchoring them on horizontal rails on the short edge of the panels (some panels manufacturers may allow this, the one I photo'd was Sharp panels which will invalidate the warranty), badly weatherprooofed cable entries, generally shoddy wokmanship, and a blatant disregard for the Health and Safety Working at Heights regulations and guidleines (including using a JCB bucket at height to work in / from).

I feel quite sorry for the end customer as in their ignorance these installers have sometimes created a disaster waiting to happen.

So, my question is really twofold:
a) Who to report these installations to when I don't know who installed it.
b) How to protect prospective customers from choosing one of these guys (who because of their methods are always cheaper)

Any ideas? Becasue if we don't stop these guys, the whole industry will end up with a very bad reputation as soon as a strong wind blows.

 

[pembrokeshire]

The MCS database would know who installed them when issuing the cert ... maybe the REAL option?
You are right it does us no good !!

 

[mark da spark]

I agree with you Worcester.
We have noticed more and more systems popping up which seem to be installed in whatever way the installer wants, which is more often incorrect.

If we report them to REAL, how do we go about?

 

[SolarCity]

I'd say a phone call to MCS would be a better route than the REAL. And I agree with you, it IS important.

 

[mogga]

to find out who fitted it Knock the door and ask " Im thinking of getting solar you wouldnt happen to have the number of your installer And would you recomend them"

 

[Worcester]

@Mogga, often done that, and you know what, it is amazing how many of them can't actually remember the exact name - Great impresion they've left!

 

[topquark]

The problem is still that the law leaves this with the home owner, not the installer. So a call to building control would only end up back at the customers doorstep. The law needs to be changed so that the contractor is liable.

 

[poheZ]

yes and 9/10 the customer doesnt want the hassle

If it is the customers problem they should write to the installation company and to REAL.

 

[Worcester]

My concern is that unless something is done then the industry will be badly damaged.

The best people have to be REAL / MCS and they need to 'SHOUT' about some of their actions. Even if you check the news section on the REAL site, it's about the industry, not what they are doing / have done.

A list of Struck-off or Sanctioned ex-members would help, though if you download the REAL complaints process, they are only concerned with pre-contract, post-contract it just points it back to MCS, and I couldn't find a compaints / reporting procedure on the MCS website.

As I say, if we don't do something ourselves to help self-regulate the industry, the actions of a few bad installers will come back to bite us all. As I understand it the NICEIC make noise about rogues in their normal sphere of operations, perhaps it is down to NAPIT, NICEIC, Corgi et all to protect their own reputations else thay may lose their MCS accreditation abiltiy.

 

[malcolmsanford]

I always remember being told as an apprentice .......son it is the easiest thing in the world to find fault, just make sure that whatever you do is right, and that is all that you can do.

If it rains and the roof leaks then the customer will be getting the company back out, or they will soon get the reputation for shoddy work, if panels are overhanging the eaves, then that is building controls remit surely ....................

It's a strange set up this PV work, I've seen threads on here people asking about leads that nationals get and trying to usurp them, and now we seem to have PV police going around tearing other peoples work apart .............

I would never dream of going into someone home, and ripping someones work apart ..................if it was downright dangerous and could harm someone I would tell the customer and if they wanted to confirm my fears they should recall the installer, and can use my observations as questions.

To me it's like being back in school, look miss look how bad that is ..................my work is much better isn't it miss.

 

[SolarCity]

I would never dream of going into someone home, and ripping someones work apart ..................if it was downright dangerous and could harm someone I would tell the customer and if they wanted to confirm my fears they should recall the installer, and can use my observations as questions..

What about if a job is shoddily installed? Not dangerous yet not up to scratch? You don't feel obliged to tell someone that they've been ripped off?

 

[malcolmsanford]

Who quality control are we working to, your standard of " up to scratch" may yet indeed exceed some work you have seen, but the other token is that your "up to scratch" may not come up to standards of others.

There is a very fine line between offering professional advice and loooking unproffesional and insecure when your relating to another contractors work.

If I were invited into a house/office/complex to work and I found something that was down right dangerous, I would of course inform the client of my concerns. I would though recommend that they contact the installer and voice concerns of the work, they would be more than welcome to use my findings, but I would stress that they must let the original contractor have the oppotunity to comment and if neccessary carry out any work that remedies the situation.

In all my years in the contracting business I have seen work that a dyslexic Monkey would have put in better, and in many instances I have changed the install, but I don't think ever once have I "reported" poor work,

I know that Reg 134.1.1 calls for correctly installed equipment and the use of good workmanship, but the bottom line if the customer was happy with the install and payed for it, the look of it must be to the customers satisfaction. The technical side is of course a different thing, but as long as the roof don't leak then how can you say it is wrong, again if the panels overhang, that is BC to remedy.

Perhaps I'm just an old contractor, but in all my time in this industry all contractors helped each other, and in many cases recommended each other, if you were asked to do work that was not normally in your scope. PV seems to be a totally different concept.

 

[SRE]

I understand your point but think what most people are concerned about is being associated with dodgy companies. I think most people would just like to see the standard of installations raised so we can all benefit. It's not about putting down their work - more about encouraging other installers to "up" their game.

 

[malcolmsanford]

As I said in my OP, and it is a doctrine that i have tried to maintain, look after your own work and you will never go wrong, and it as never failed me in nearly 40 years.

I heartliy commend anyone trying to achieve the highest standards they can and if you can achieve an high standard then you will find you never want for work.

Our industry all the time I've been in it, as always had cowboys and poor standards of work, and I'm sure there still will be long after I go to that power station in the sky, but the natural evolution of things normally tend to weed these out and your high standards will always keep you in work.

I've only tried to give advice that my experience as taught me, there is a very fine line between trying to achieve standards and coming across as petty and insecure, when dealing with other peoples work. All I can advise is what I said in the first sentence, look after your own work and you will never want for work.

 

[SRE]

I always ask prices and usually get an answer - I'd never know whether we were in the right area otherwise and I think it's a bit naive not to take the opportunity. I've worked on both sides responsible for tendering and managing contractors for many years and then contracting myself. It's important to be aware of others shoddy work and to be able to draw attention to your own good work without pointing a finger BUT make no mistake when I was looking after million pound contractors to start off with they were all tarred with the same brush because some lazy installers (large nationals as it happens) thought they could make big bucks because they were a big company and no-one dared to challenge them. I was one of the few people who kicked them into touch in my area until they conformed to the required standards. Customers don't have that luxury and the last thing we need is another round fo Rogue Traders and Watchdog scaremongering about pv installers - that affects us all.

Maybe the question should be - how do we make sure the public know about the excellent standards that are out there ....

 

[SRE]

Theres nothing much you can do to stop bad installs....... sounds like you got to much time on your hands if your driving round checking other peoples jobs.

.

Or maybe they are concerned about being tarred with the same brush ..... I'd be rich if I had a pound for every plumber that told me 15 years ago that condensing boilers were rubbish and there was nothing wrong with 25 year old boilers - oh and that solar wouldn't take off because it doesn't work. Apathy rules, that's why we have a coalition government, maybe if more people cared the standards would be higher - the query is just about the method not the deisre to improve on standards.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Or maybe they are concerned about being tarred with the same brush ..... I'd be rich if I had a pound for every plumber that told me 15 years ago that condensing boilers were rubbish and there was nothing wrong with 25 year old boilers - oh and that solar wouldn't take off because it doesn't work. Apathy rules, that's why we have a coalition government, maybe if more people cared the standards would be higher - the query is just about the method not the deisre to improve on standards.

The diffference between PV and condensing boilers is in the fact that you can physically obtain details on how much energy is saved by condensing boilers, unfortunately there is no such figures on how really efficient PV is because there are so many variables. At the moment we are working to averages taken over a set period of time, but no hard set figures.

The trouble with condensing boilers is with the installation of them. They require drainage, and as seen over the last 2 winters these have frozen up stopping the operation of the boiler.

With the increase size of the heat exchangers, and the use of first stainless and now aluminium, they can be 50% more expensive as conventional boilers, and becasue of the newness of aluminium there are not figures available on how long these will last in an operational enviroment.

It is accepted that with the energy saved by using condensing boilers recovery of the initial outlay should be achieved within 5-7 years.

Now PV the industry is working on returns where the most accuarate figures availalbe are guesstimates. There is no real ball park figure on how much yeild someone will get from an installation, as no one can forcast what the harvest conditions will be in May 2013, so we work to figures that have taken an average. As I pointed out here the last 2 winters in the UK have far exceeded the average in both snowfall, coldness and wetness, so how as a technology can you deliver an accurate return.

The only way to move forward with this was the FIT incentive and again I have no problem with this, only in the fact that the FIT tax is levied on to other energy users via higher prices. The government was certainly not going to foot the bill, and therefore the energy suppliers are passing on the tax to all the users, which IMO is wrong.

At this moment in time PV in the UK is not a viable energy resource unless it is heavily subsidised, and the subsidy is coming from people who can not afford to install 15-20k worth of installation. It is a levy on the less fortunate IMO and that is wrong.

The concept of PV a good idea, how are we going to achieve an efficient PV industry, that should still be something in a devlopment stage, is subsidising it the way forward, possibly, by a FIT that benefits a tiny proportion of society over the majority then no.

 

[MCS Renewables]

One of the other energy websites with a forum had a thread which exposed "Solartricity" to be the rebranded rogue installer "Ideal Solar" from Ringwood in Hampshire. This is the company who featured in a Which magazine report and Watchdog TV programme about rogue solar companies. This company is a national installer.
It has the same staff, the same building , is not in REAL or the MCS and is continuing to rip off consumers.

The thread has had to be temporarily removed as the Solartricity lawyers are "unhappy" with the content.
So even if you try to expose the rogues they can use the law to help them and continue to rip people off.

If anyone can help with any provable facts, pictures, stories, info about Ideal solar now being Solartricity please pm me as soon as possible and I will pass it on. Thanks

 

[SRE]

Malcolm I think you missed my point -

1) Maintaining the status quo isn't always the best stand - which is what you suggest by not doing anything
2) By maintaining the status quo good installers inevitably end up being linked with bad. I've been at many meetings where excellent installers have been branded in the same category as bad because no-one had the balls to disrupt the status quo.

I disagree with you about condensing boilers but that is not a discussion for a solar thread about rogue installers. My point was to illustrate that "old school" isn't always "best school" just because it's been going for a long time.

Positive support to help those not meeting MCS/REAL criteria should be encouraged rather than non compliance being ignored.

 

[sparky3366]

So a hypothetical question for you all then. Would you inform the customer if a so called electrician changed their CU from an old wylex 3036 to a new board with 60898 breakers but no rcd protection? Its better than the old board but not compliant...no certs or inspections done all for £180.00.

 

[topquark]

If the CU is changed it MUST be up to current regs (at least dual RCD), so yes that would be a violation. Would I report it, probably not, but I would inform the client so they can decide whether they wish to. If it was reported would LABC do anything about it, probably not.

 

[goodwilld]

I would reprot them to - Trading Standards, MCS and REAl that will sort the cowboys out!!!!

 

[judgeelectrical]

i think Worcester has a very good point here. Its no good turning a blind eye, why should we have to comply with all facets of the regulations, do your job correctly , and get beaton on a quote by someone who just lashes it in and clears off. I ve seen one really messy install which to be quite honest made me feel ill . We need to protect our work , price and industry by outing the cowboys ,

report um all

Keep up the gppd work

 

[malcolmsanford]

Is shoddy workmanship, cowboys and lash ups a new concept? As long as there as been an electrical industry, building , plumbing or whatever you will be undercut and work will be taken off you by the shoody contractor, that is human nature, some customesr wants the cheapest he can get everytime, the rest are discerning enough to know that cheapest does not equate to best.

The only way to really counteract it is to maintain your own standards and unless PV is completely different, the majority of your work will be referrals, as the majority of all electrical work is.

Im not sure what the REAL. MCS or any other body scope of responibiliy is, but is it to police the standards of installations and if it is what powers have they got to to maintain a standard, and more to the point what desire, as they like all the bogus schemes in our industry rely on contributions from the contractor, and I would imagine they would be loathe to remove a paying member from their charge becasue a panel overhangs a roof, or the cables are not going through the roof 100% correct.

 

[judgeelectrical]

I am not saying you should go around searcing for shoddy workmanship, but if i came across it , why not report it to the relavant bodies, after all , what are they there for , i would of thought to up hold standards. It takes a massive ammount of time effort and money to qualify for the MCS , so standards should be maintained.

 

[SRE]

I'm not sure i understand your logic Malcolm are you saying that because it's always been like that it should stay like that? Maybe scientists should have left dna where it was after all we didn't need it before did we .....

 

[malcolmsanford]

I'm not sure i understand your logic Malcolm are you saying that because it's always been like that it should stay like that? Maybe scientists should have left dna where it was after all we didn't need it before did we .....

Im not saying that at all, what Im asking is what are the MCS and REAL prepared to do. If they are going to take the line that poor workmanship or installations will not be condoned, then are they going to prosecute, and if they do when they get someone in a court of law, what standards are they going to present to say that a certain contractor as not upheld these standards.

It is easy for people to decry standards or workmanship, it is a totally different ball game to prove that one persons installation is below a standard that to my knowledge does not exist. Because someone says that is poor, is it? and what evidence do they base that on, it looks poor, I would not do that? ..................is there a book or guide that uphelds and proports a certain standard?

The OP was down to someone driving around and just from a physical observation decided that 4 installations were "sub standard", and my point is in what way is it? Becasue they would not have installed it that way?

As far as Im aware the REAL ensure that you dont sell a system with bogus information, and the MCS is basically a scheme that will allow your system acreditation to recieve the FIT.

I Know that the PV side of our industry is new, and it seems that you guys want to do work to standards, which I endorse. I have been in the industry 40 years and as I said during that whole time there will be people who will undercut you and do work that you consider poor.

Let me ask one thing if you did call the MCS and REAL with a complaint that you have observed an installation that is in your opinion is of a poor standard, what will they do?

 

[SRE]

Have done and it was greatfully received. Real have asked for more information I've reported misselling and poor installations in 3 circumstances. It wasn't petty stuff but serious breaches that I have come across during my work. Not sure what happened after the call but Real said they couldn't do anything without actual jobs to visit, companies to do checks on - they appreciated specific information rather than hearsay.

 

[Ramjam]

I implore you all to write to REAL and demand that they put a procedure in place to receive complaints about REAL members from REAL members.

REAL will tell you that they are very interested to hear about complaints about members from members and that they will take them seriously. They are not taking them seriously unless they have a procedure that we can see that they follow.

The renewables industry has the possibility to cast out cowboys, never before has a new domestic trade been so tightly regulated. If we lobby REAL to tackle rogue installers then they are in a position to police the industry. We pay their salaries, they should do their job.

REAL code requires complainace with MCS, MCS requires complieance with the DTI guide and BS7671. In all of these documents there is enough ammo to shoot down any shabby install as non-compliant with the REAL code. Non-compliance leads to suspension/expulsion or for minor infringments remdiation and close observation. The rules are already in place, we all need to lobby REAL to do their job.

DO IT NOW, SEND AN EMAIL TO [email protected] to demand that they put in place a transparent procedure to deal with complaints from members.

 

[malcolmsanford]

I implore you all to write to REAL and demand that they put a procedure in place to receive complaints about REAL members from REAL members.

REAL will tell you that they are very interested to hear about complaints about members from members and that they will take them seriously. They are not taking them seriously unless they have a procedure that we can see that they follow.

The renewables industry has the possibility to cast out cowboys, never before has a new domestic trade been so tightly regulated. If we lobby REAL to tackle rogue installers then they are in a position to police the industry. We pay their salaries, they should do their job.

REAL code requires complainace with MCS, MCS requires complieance with the DTI guide and BS7671. In all of these documents there is enough ammo to shoot down any shabby install as non-compliant with the REAL code. Non-compliance leads to suspension/expulsion or for minor infringments remdiation and close observation. The rules are already in place, we all need to lobby REAL to do their job.

DO IT NOW, SEND AN EMAIL TO [email protected] to demand that they put in place a transparent procedure to deal with complaints from members.

So we are in a situation here where unlike the complaints procedure of other Electrical schemes where it is the client that can make a complaint as in the Part P, the REAL scheme is looking for fellow members of the industry to police it.

So we could have a situation of gestapo type contractors that have lost out on a job, and decide that they are not happy with the winning contractors work and file a complaint. If at worse it is a bogus complaint it will get the winning contractor losing time filling in a myriad of forms and questionaires that something like this will generate, and so affecting his business. Because as sure as eggs are eggs these acreditation schemes will love a form and questionaire.

I've read the REAL code of practice and in the section marked design installation it just refers you back to section 2.3 which then refers you back to the MCS acreditation, which from there directs you to your scheme providor.............so it will be like the Part P standard, where I think in the 6 odd years the schemes have been running, I don't personally know of anyone being kicked out of one, and I would imagine very few throughout the country have.

So the REAL do not have an actual standard of workmanship, they will leave that to the schemes to decide, and as any contractor in the industry is paying well over 500 pounds a year to be a member of a scheme, I'm pretty sure they will not be in an hurry to throw out a cash cow ........................

Welcome guys to Part P ..........becasue that is what you have in reality and what I have been advocating all along, it's a good idea, a wonderful chance, that will never ever come to fruitition as long as independant schemes run as a profit making institution.

 

[yellowvanman]

Sadly, Malcolm you are correct!

 

[jer05]

One of the other energy websites with a forum had a thread which exposed "Solartricity" to be the rebranded rogue installer "Ideal Solar" from Ringwood in Hampshire. This is the company who featured in a Which magazine report and Watchdog TV programme about rogue solar companies. This company is a national installer.
It has the same staff, the same building , is not in REAL or the MCS and is continuing to rip off consumers.

The thread has had to be temporarily removed as the Solartricity lawyers are "unhappy" with the content.
So even if you try to expose the rogues they can use the law to help them and continue to rip people off.

If anyone can help with any provable facts, pictures, stories, info about Ideal solar now being Solartricity please pm me as soon as possible and I will pass it on. Thanks

My mother received a visit from Solartricity on Friday. 80 years old lives alone etc. She was pursuaded to sign up for a deal and paid a deposit of £3,230 for a £13k installation - 1.62kWp!

I have spoken to these rogues and cancelled the contract. They tell me they have refunded the money I am waiting until Friday to see if it registers in my mothers account. Then I am into trading standards etc. If you want a scanned copy of all the documents then once my mum's money is back I have the pack. They need drumming out of the market quick.

Jer

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Seaward Solar's first newsletter highlights the problems in other countries, wonder how long it will take for someone to do a survey in the UK on installation standards.....

 

[Cider]

As the first post says poor installs going in everywhere around me.
Its pretty obvious that alot of companies have been set up to sell sell sell now, and shut down in a few years when the market is dead.
Therefore there will be no company to retribute for the problems when they show up.
Quality install has to be a massive selling point and make it clear in sales blurb how it must and must not be done.