Switch rooms, Sub stations.

[Mr Mike]

Hi all.
I need some advise please.
Where I work the switch rooms are continually being used as storage rooms, materials such as toilet tissue, mops, vacuum cleaners ect.
Even the main sub station has rubbish in it.
To get to DBs I have to clear a path ect.
Is there any legislation covering these rooms, preventing them being used this way.
I need some info so I can do battle with the powers that be.
Any guidance will be much appreciated.
Kind regards
Mike

 

[telectrix]

Fire Risk for starters. Access to switch gear , trip hazards, just think what possible dangers/risks are associated with the situation. Anyway, switch rooms should be locked with authorised personnel only having access.

 

[Mr Mike]

Thanks telectrix.
The key situation is another subject though.
It seems every man/woman and their dog has one.
Fire and the old health and safety is a good starter.
Thanks.......

 

[telectrix]

talk to whoever deals with H&S . suggest changing the locks with restricted issue of keys. if some mrs. mop has access to the switch room and gets electrocuted, your firm is liable.

 

[Mr Mike]

Yea, on the positive there is a new H&S person. Guess she will want to impress so I will challenge her to sort this out.
Thanks....

 

[ian.settle1]

Also point out in writing that should there be a loss of power and you go in and fall over all this rubbish which should not be in there in the first place then there wil be a nice lawsuit heading their way.

As said by telectrix access should be limited to authorised personnel only as if there is an accident HSE will have a field day.

 

[Mr Mike]

Good point. HSE and bad publicity, not good.

 

[Knobhead]

A call to the HSE will get results. They will not reveal who called them and will disguise it with a general check.
The last company I worked for had a visit and they did a general check. They homed in, in a round about way on the switchboard the tip off was about. The board had to be replaced. It was on a part of the works that had nothing to do with me, so it wasn’t me that tipped them off. But I copped out for bringing all the gear on my part up to scratch. Had to change 2 500A switches and disable a 300A, plus many others.
So expect some work to bounce back on you

 

[Mr Mike]

Thanks Tony.
They have had notification from the lift company who services the lifts, that if they do not remove rubbish from the Lift Motor Room they will not return to service or call outs.
It is very poor house keeping though.

 

[telectrix]

so. time to put your foot down with a firm hand.

 

[Mr Mike]

so. time to put your foot down with a firm hand.

LOL indeed.

 

[Engineer54]

A call to the HSE will get results. They will not reveal who called them and will disguise it with a general check.
The last company I worked for had a visit and they did a general check. They homed in, in a round about way on the switchboard the tip off was about. The board had to be replaced. It was on a part of the works that had nothing to do with me, so it wasn’t me that tipped them off. But I copped out for bringing all the gear on my part up to scratch. Had to change 2 500A switches and disable a 300A, plus many others.
So expect some work to bounce back on you

You've got me curious now, ...Why did you have to change these 500A switches and disable a 300A switch??
I take it, ...these are all breakers?? lol!!!.. there not those old open blade switches are they...haha!!!

 

[Knobhead]

No they were Dependant Manual Operation DMO they operate at the speed you operate the switch. So if you’re slow and there under load BANG.
And yes I have worked on knife switches, up to 1000A

 

[somersetsparks]

Its always a bit of a gamble with a lot of switcgear isn't it! We have done a shutdown at hospital before, the hospital being about 25 years old, the problem being that none of the ACBs or switches had ever been operated since installation! Needless to say we had a 25% failure rate, ended up cost about £25000 worth of gear!

 

[Knobhead]

Its always a bit of a gamble with a lot of switcgear isn't it! We have done a shutdown at hospital before, the hospital being about 25 years old, the problem being that none of the ACBs or switches had ever been operated since installation! Needless to say we had a 25% failure rate, ended up cost about £25000 worth of gear!

I know what you mean.
We had a new manager, he came with me on a job and was horrified when I pulled the retractable handle of a switch out and hung my jacket (pockets full of tools) and helmet on it. A few months later I had to switch it off, I was doing pull ups on the handle. Went outside the sub to find another body to give me a hand (a bit more weight to add to my 16 stone) who do I find, our new manager. I took two of us swinging on it! First time it had been operated in 45 years.

 

[Engineer54]

Its always a bit of a gamble with a lot of switcgear isn't it! We have done a shutdown at hospital before, the hospital being about 25 years old, the problem being that none of the ACBs or switches had ever been operated since installation! Needless to say we had a 25% failure rate, ended up cost about £25000 worth of gear!

Hospital electrical installations should under go regular inspection and testing, that should include main switchboards. All hospital distribution systems are so designed to allow such inspection and testing. To me, this just tells me that the Hospital Engineer isn't worth a carrot, if nothing in the main switch-room has been tested in that hospital for 25 years....

 

[somersetsparks]

Yep, the shutdown was ordered by the new maintenance engineer, the thing is it had all been thermally imaged regularily but never actually operated!

 

[Engineer54]

Well let's hope the NEW Hospital Engineer has learn a valuable lesson, that there is no substitute for hands on physical testing and inspection. Relying on thermal imaging is a nonsense, It's fine for checking for high resistance contacts and joints etc, but it isn't going to tell you if a breakers mechanisms are working or not, or if breaker trip settings are functioning correctly, ...if at all!!!

 

[somersetsparks]

Well let's hope the NEW Hospital Engineer has learn a valuable lesson, that there is no substitute for hands on physical testing and inspection. Relying on thermal imaging is a nonsense, It's fine for checking for high resistance contacts and joints etc, but it isn't going to tell you if a breakers mechanisms are working or not, or if breaker trip settings are functioning correctly, ...if at all!!!

Which indeed it didn't (main ACB) therefore stopping the whole shutdown until a new one arrived 6 weeks later!
For some reason nothing ever showed up on the thermal imaging.....
​

 

[Engineer54]

Which indeed it didn't (main ACB) therefore stopping the whole shutdown until a new one arrived 6 weeks later!
For some reason nothing ever showed up on the thermal imaging...​

Why would it show anything up?? If there was no hot spots caused by bad contacts, and connections, nothing will show up!!

That's my point, ''thermal imaging'' is just ''ONE'' type of testing, that would or could be employed during an inspection and testing routine, ...it certainly isn't the ONLY routine test!!!

 

[somersetsparks]

Sorry engineer, I meant it cynically!

 

[Kamikaze]

Hi all.
I need some advise please.
Where I work the switch rooms are continually being used as storage rooms, materials such as toilet tissue, mops, vacuum cleaners ect.
Even the main sub station has rubbish in it.
To get to DBs I have to clear a path ect.
Is there any legislation covering these rooms, preventing them being used this way.
I need some info so I can do battle with the powers that be.
Any guidance will be much appreciated.
Kind regards
Mike

You don’t need them Muppets from the H&S. Just quote them this:
The electricity at work act 1989, Part 1-Section 15
For the purposes of enabling injury to be prevented, adequate working space, adequate means of access, and adequate lighting shall be provided at all electrical equipment on which or near which work is being done in circumstances which may give rise to danger.

 

[Knobhead]

You don’t need them Muppets from the H&S. Just quote them this:
The electricity at work act 1989, Part 1-Section 15
For the purposes of enabling injury to be prevented, adequate working space, adequate means of access, and adequate lighting shall be provided at all electrical equipment on which or near which work is being done in circumstances which may give rise to danger.

Unfortunately some companies can be vindictive.

 

[Kamikaze]

Unfortunately some companies can be vindictive.

I agree with you, but good ideas are not adopted automatically. They must be driven into practice with courageous patience. I find that being very subtle helps. Every chance Mr Mike gets he should put it in writing but not make a fuss about it. Most certificates have a section that allows you to state the “Details of departures”. Just relentlessly fill in paperwork and every chance he gets just write down that everything is just fine with the exception of this small indiscretion. And keep a copy of it if possible. Photograph the pages if you have to. Eventually someone in power will get the message and do something about it because they are too young to go to jail….lol.
Psychological warfare with a smile. You can’t beat it!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Its always a bit of a gamble with a lot of switcgear isn't it! We have done a shutdown at hospital before, the hospital being about 25 years old, the problem being that none of the ACBs or switches had ever been operated since installation! Needless to say we had a 25% failure rate, ended up cost about £25000 worth of gear![/QUOTE]

Most likely find this poor engineer looking for future employment, costing the trust 25K. Luckily never worked a great deal on maintenance, but was always told by the maintenance engineers that the maintenance department is the curse of the accountants, as it costs a fortune and it never makes a profit.

I think all the arguments that if it ever broke down then it could affect the profit was always met with, well let's wait till it does, there was many a sigh I gather from engineers in these type of meetings.

 

[Mr Mike]

I agree with you, but good ideas are not adopted automatically. They must be driven into practice with courageous patience. I find that being very subtle helps. Every chance Mr Mike gets he should put it in writing but not make a fuss about it. Most certificates have a section that allows you to state the “Details of departures”. Just relentlessly fill in paperwork and every chance he gets just write down that everything is just fine with the exception of this small indiscretion. And keep a copy of it if possible. Photograph the pages if you have to. Eventually someone in power will get the message and do something about it because they are too young to go to jail….lol.
Psychological warfare with a smile. You can’t beat it!

Thank you, I like the line of thought.
Indeed thanks to all for your valued thoughts.
Heres hoping to a sound solution.
Kindest regards
Mike.

 

[Knobhead]

On the subject of protection, you’ll love this. One of the substation switch rooms had three boards.

• Main board fed by 4 1250KVA transformers. 21 ACB’s
• Sub board 1 fed from main board, out going CFS 600A to 800A. 12 switches in total.
• Sub board 2 fed from main board, out going CFS 30A to 450A. 48 switches in total.

So muggin’s here was asked to look at a DB out on the plant. Fed by a 16mm 4C. The work needed the board to be isolated. So had a look all over board 2 (the logical place to feed it from) no sign of it. OK have a look at board 1, found it! Isolated and got on with the job.
So came time to re-energise, just out of curiosity I opened the switch, it still had the 800A fuses fitted! The DB stayed off while I made adapters to fit 100A fuses to it.
I collared the electrician that fitted the DB to ask what the hell he’d been thinking of. “Well it was the nearest switch so I used it”. What about the fuses? “The fuses are OK they fit the switch”. Thank god the old duffer retired a couple of months later.

16mm with 800A fuses!

 

[somersetsparks]

Bloody hell! Imagine if you had a fault on that!
I've never seem it on that scale but quite regularily see 25mm on 200A etc. Like you say people just use any free switch.

 

[Engineer54]

Tony,

That main switchboard, ...3 Buss couplers?? Had a similar set-up on a project in Libya, with 4 1600KVA TX's with a bus link to a second main switchboard supplied by a 1250 KVA TX. All automatic controls, including non-essential load shedding if one of the 1600 TX's needed to pick up load on a downed TX. Also in the same switch room, was the MV GCB switchboard, with 2 supply incomers, 5 outgoing TX and a stand-by 3 MVA generator incomer. Again all fully automatically controlled with links to the LV switchboard....

Long story to those panels controls, ...after 3 failed attempts by the main contractor and his subby, a complete re-wiring of the LV panels controls, brought the system up to working spec's!! lol!!!

 

[Knobhead]

The one I loved was our senior engineer, we never saw eye to eye on switching procedures. Fairly simple job to do shut down a 11/.44KV 1000KVA TX without loosing supply to its load. The board had two TX’s each fed ultimately from 2 33/11KV 20MVA intake TX’s

• Boss to me, close the bus-section
• Me, bu**er off we’ve not balanced the ATC’s or closed the main bus-section
• Boss, no need to do that
• You do it then
• Boss, give me that handle
• I’m off

I heard the ACB close and the lights went out. Both TX’s tripped. I wanted to go back and say I told you so but I couldn’t, I was sat on the floor in the HV room howling with laughter. While he’s explaining to the MD why the Head office and computer centre were in darkness. I had a wander up to the intake sub, some clown had switched one ATC to manual and left the other in auto. 6 steps plus several 100A difference.

 

[ian.settle1]

Its always a bit of a gamble with a lot of switcgear isn't it! We have done a shutdown at hospital before, the hospital being about 25 years old, the problem being that none of the ACBs or switches had ever been operated since installation! Needless to say we had a 25% failure rate, ended up cost about £25000 worth of gear!

25% failure rate is not bad considering they had not been touched for 25 years, I was told that the maximum period between operation checks was 2 years due to the grease solidifying thus causing the mechanism not to operate

 

[somersetsparks]

To Be Honest, I imagine most of them had been operated before at some point but no records existed other then for thermal imaging.

 

[Engineer54]

Where these ACBs spring loaded/motorised, or straight lever switched?? Any idea of who's make they were??

 

[somersetsparks]

Hard to remember I keep thinking it was a Bill panel and ACBs but it might of been dorman smith, It wasn't the main switchroom for the hospital but one supplying a few wards and kitchens etc and a lot of admin, it was left with many empty switches ready for future expansion which never happened.

Oh ACB's were spring loaded type.

 

[Knobhead]

25% failure rate is not bad considering they had not been touched for 25 years, I was told that the maximum period between operation checks was 2 years due to the grease solidifying thus causing the mechanism not to operate

Satellite sub boards suffer the worse as far as maintenance is concerned. Tucked away somewhere, totally ignored until they go wrong. Then of course the finger pointing starts.

Where these ACBs spring loaded/motorised, or straight lever switched?? Any idea of who's make they were??

Straight lever switched, I take it you mean DMO (Direct Manual Operation) these should have been removed from service by now. Having said that I installed a panel of them in the 80’s, Crompton Parkingson if I remember right. The ACB’s weren’t to bad, other than being DMO we kept them. The fuse switches were that bad they were chucked out even before being installed. They were replaced with System 4 gear.
Some of our gear dated from 1935. One oil switch used to scare me, as you closed it on load it would fight back.

 

[Engineer54]

Satellite sub boards suffer the worse as far as maintenance is concerned. Tucked away somewhere, totally ignored until they go wrong. Then of course the finger pointing starts.


Straight lever switched, I take it you mean DMO (Direct Manual Operation) these should have been removed from service by now. Having said that I installed a panel of them in the 80’s, Crompton Parkingson if I remember right. The ACB’s weren’t to bad, other than being DMO we kept them. The fuse switches were that bad they were chucked out even before being installed. They were replaced with System 4 gear.
Some of our gear dated from 1935. One oil switch used to scare me, as you closed it on load it would fight back.

To be honest Tony, i haven't had switch ''fuse'' gear specified on any of the projects i've been working on for at least the last 20 odd years. All have been either MCCBs ACBs or GCBs, apart from RMUs that is.

Oil switches, ....now that does take me back, ....all the way back to my training days!! lol!! My old company had it's own power station, generated at 33KV and then distributed around the site at 11KV, (just over a square mile). Which had quite a few factories and plants on it. Most of the original switchgear was oil insulated, before it was replaced with SF6 stuff. As i remember, most of the old 11KV oil gear was ''Lucy'' extensible stuff.

 

[Mr Mike]

Hi guys,
I have sent a note to the boss via e-mail, to highlight my concerns.
I have also used the information you kindly gave to me help raise the importance of my concerns.
My mail went out on 24/03/2011. No reply to date.
I was going to post the e-mail and photos on this site but the content gives too much of a clue as to which company I am at so I have bottled it.
If and when I get a reply I will keep ypu posted.
Thanks for your kind help in this matter.