TN-C-S (PEN) RCBOs Discussion

[timhoward]

I can see your point, the box was actually smashed to get the meter tails and the service cable, this is 1997... these houses were thrown together in a weekend, way overdue for an upgrade and an in-depth inspection, I will stop here, there are so many other aspects that would not be compliant with the latest regulations... I'm just afraid I'm going to have to rewire the whole house and it will cost me an eye and a leg ;-)

Thanks for your comments

On a positive note it sounds like you have RCD protection for everything except lighting which is better than quite a few houses I see. A board change alone shouldn't be an eye and a leg, and your electrician will probably discuss options with you.

 

[LastManOnline]

You've a TN-C-S (aka PME) system and need to replace that 16mm T&E before worrying about anything else!

Only just saw OP is from Dublin. 16mm T&E is the standard supply in ROI (63 amp fuse) for domestic installations. TNC-S is the only supply type available for domestic installations in ROI. You have a standard 4 foot earth rod which is accessed via the "green hatch" because its obligatory in ROI. Your DB sounds standard.
Upgrading your DB to suitable rcbo, s is a good idea. Two things to be aware of are (1) a new set of regulations apply since February of this year and (2) carrying out any electrical works on a DB by anyone except a RECI registered electrician is against not just the regulations but also against the law. The "Safe Electric" website would be a really helpful guide for someone like yourself.

 

[Soi disant]

carrying out any electrical works on a DB by anyone except a RECI registered electrician is against not just the regulations but also against the law.

That's going to help who, how?

And is justified by what?

 

[westward10]

That's going to help who, how?

And is justified by what?

It is illegal in Southern Ireland to carry out certain electrical works unless you are an REC. It can result in heavy fines or imprisonment.

 

[LastManOnline]

That's going to help who, how?

And is justified by what?

Not sure of all the factors involved in getting us to this point.10 years ago there were a number of options on the table regarding the way forward for the electrical industry here(including the UK model). They chose ultimately to really tighten up in the domestic sector and to continue the traditional apprenticeship arrangement. It seems to be working well. I don't agree with some aspects. Not allowing qualified (but unregistered) electricians to work on their own CU, s is OTT in my opinion. There was an arrangement where they could get their work independently verified but that's now gone.

 

[i=p/u]

Some amount of junction boxes (oboes) sold in ROI. I'd say they have to take that stance, just to get the message out..

 

[pc1966]

Not sure of all the factors involved in getting us to this point.10 years ago there were a number of options on the table regarding the way forward for the electrical industry here(including the UK model). They chose ultimately to really tighten up in the domestic sector and to continue the traditional apprenticeship arrangement. It seems to be working well. I don't agree with some aspects. Not allowing qualified (but unregistered) electricians to work on their own CU, s is OTT in my opinion. There was an arrangement where they could get their work independently verified but that's now gone.

This is something I have wondered about. Forgive me for perhaps seeing national stereotypes here, but I have never seen the ROI as a country associated with "following orders" as one might do for, say Germany.

So the rather draconian limits on what folk can do with thier own electrics is a bit puzzling. Has there been a few high-profile cases of deaths, etc, related to pi**poor DIY work or similar to force the law there?

 

[LastManOnline]

This is something I have wondered about. Forgive me for perhaps seeing national stereotypes here, but I have never seen the ROI as a country associated with "following orders" as one might do for, say Germany.

So the rather draconian limits on what folk can do with thier own electrics is a bit puzzling. Has there been a few high-profile cases of deaths, etc, related to pi**poor DIY work or similar to force the law there?

You are correct, we can be pretty relaxed about breaking rules here, PROVIDING the principle remains intact i. e. crossing the road when there is no traffic around is fine regardless whether the "red" or "green" man is lit. A German probably would, nt do that.
But breaking rules that might lead to a potential for risk is a no-go. Electrical installation work is seen here as the preserve of qualified electricians only. Its very unusual for a lay person to carry out their own electrical work.And if they do, it tends to be frowned upon. Registered electricians can certify their own work only.There has always been a very cautious approach to electrics here (rcd, s mandatory since 1981,rewireable fuses banned long ago, all mcb boards became standard in 80,s). I have never experienced or heard of a work colleague who experienced an electrical fire. (I, m forty years in the game). I think this law is just another reflection of that cautious approach. I Don, t think it was necessary to make the regulations statutory
If you were to contrast how our electrical system is managed compared to our road infrastructure (shabby) it's like comparing chalk and cheese.

 

[Soi disant]

It is illegal in Southern Ireland to carry out certain electrical works unless you are an REC. It can result in heavy fines or imprisonment.

Yes.

That helps who, how?

And is justified by what?

 

[Soi disant]

You are correct, we can be pretty relaxed about breaking rules here, PROVIDING the principle remains intact i. e. crossing the road when there is no traffic around is fine regardless whether the "red" or "green" man is lit. A German probably would, nt do that.

I once casually strolled across a road in Munich with no traffic anywhere near, but against a red man. All the other people standing on the pavement looked at me as if I'd just bitten the head off a kitten.

Electrical installation work is seen here as the preserve of qualified electricians only.....I think this law is just another reflection of that cautious approach.

Or a reflection of very successful lobbying by the electrical industry.

It's a similar position in Australia. And it used to be in NZ. When NZ liberalised their regime and shut down the legally mandated closed shop, electrical "incidents" reduced. Fewer fires, fewer electrocutions.

 

[westward10]

Yes.

That helps who, how?

And is justified by what?

No idea what you are getting at.

 

[Risteard]

Or a reflection of very successful lobbying by the electrical industry.

Some would suggest that it has more to do with successful lobbying by the Revenue Commissioners. I'm not sure that I agree with them as it is a rather cynical view, but I suppose it's possible that there could be some truth to it.

 

[Risteard]

You'll need to consult with a reputable electrician to you, but in the U.K. that would not meet our regulations.

Old I.S. 201-4 16mm^2 T&E had a 10mm^2 protective conductor which meets the requirements for the main protective conductor (neutralising link). The newer 16mm^2 T&E (and even newer LSF version (minimum Dca, -s2, d2, a2) which needs to be used now) has a 16mm^2 protective conductor, which is also insulated.

 

[LastManOnline]

Or a reflection of very successful lobbying by the electrical industry.

I do agree that there is likely an element of that involved as well. I felt like that when the PIR, s(periodic inspection reports) were first introduced. The idea of "taking apart" a privately owned, 5 year old home by subjecting it to the same exhaustive testing as we would a newly installed electrical installation never felt right.
Its different for rented accomodation (especially student accomodation). But I still think that a 5 year old home should not require every accessory to be disconnected, inspected, IR tested etc. An experienced visual inspection combined with checking and testing of all safety devices and earthing would suffice in my opinion

 

[i=p/u]

And that's what the books tell you... you as the inspector decide..

 

[LastManOnline]

, but I have never seen the ROI as a country associated with "following orders" as one might do for, say Germany.

This came into my mind today and I had to laugh. "Following orders" is definitely more of a Germanic trait than an Irish one. However the Irish electrical system has always had a significant German input. I have learned recently that you DO NOT question the electrical regs in ROI.You "follow orders". In less than a year I have being removed from one forum, sanctioned in a second forum and politely told to "shut it" in a third forum (by fellow sparks) for doing precisely that. The German influence?? possibly

 

[nicebutdim]

This came into my mind today and I had to laugh. "Following orders" is definitely more of a Germanic trait than an Irish one. However the Irish electrical system has always had a significant German input. I have learned recently that you DO NOT question the electrical regs in ROI.You "follow orders". In less than a year I have being removed from one forum, sanctioned in a second forum and politely told to "shut it" in a third forum (by fellow sparks) for doing precisely that. The German influence?? possibly

Questions about PEN faults?

 

[LastManOnline]

Questions about PEN faults?

Yes. Among others.

 

[nicebutdim]

Yes. Among others.

I like that you're inclined to question that which doesn't sit right with you, but I can see how it might not go down well where rules are to be followed and not questioned.

Maybe those who object to your questions might ask themselves how those rules came about in the first instance...

 

[LastManOnline]

I like that you're inclined to question that which doesn't sit right with you, but I can see how it might not go down well where rules are to be followed.

I understand their reaction. What I, m inclined to do (I do the same on this forum) is sometimes to focus attention at other countries work practices and ask if " could we perhaps learn from that?" Sometimes its appreciated, sometimes it's not. My post about the shortcomings of TNC-S went down like a lead balloon. I was removed from the site. A few weeks later a newsletter from "Safe Electric" addressed the topic directly. Co-incidence?