Unusual 2 way switching.

[HaywardI]

Hi,

Hopefully a quick and easy question.

I have just installed lights in my loft and everything is work without problem. However, I am a little paranoid about leaving the lights on up there and when closed up you can not see that they are on and it could be months before this is discovered.

Rather than put an ugly "indicator" light somewhere obvious it occured to me that perhaps just wire in the landing light into the same circuit as the loft light. Ergo, when ever the loft lights are on, so are the landing lights.

The easiest way to do this is by running a live connection from the loft light straight into the landing light switched live connection (all connections are made in the loft anyway).

The end result would be as follows:

Landing Switch Loft Switch Landing lights
On Off On
Off On On
Off Off Off
On On On

It is this last situation (On, on, on) that I am a little concerned about. Is it safe to wire as I have described above?

Thanks in advance.

 

[DefyG]

In principle nothing wrong with it but why complicate it with a further switch in the attic?

 

[Leesparkykent]

If your that worried put a time lag switch on a surface parttress, in the loft, next to hatch.

 

[ipf]

In principle nothing wrong with it but why complicate it with a further switch in the attic?

Maybe he doesn't want to go in the loft every time he goes upstairs.
Just supply and break the landing sw L at the loft switch.

 

[pc1966]

Landing Switch Loft Switch Landing lights
On Off On
Off On On
Off Off Off
On On On

It is this last situation (On, on, on) that I am a little concerned about. Is it safe to wire as I have described above?

If you take the landing lights power (i.e. as fed to the lights themselves after switching) through a simple switch on/off switch to the loft you would get:

Landing Switch​	Landing Lights​	Loft Switch​	Loft Lights​
On​	On​	On​	On​
Off​	Off​	On​	Off​
On​	On​	Off​	Off​
Off​	Off​	Off​	Off​

Is that not what you want?
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Or just use a switch that has a built in indicator to show it is switched on, such as:

https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/briti...itch-white-with-neon-with-white-inserts/66238

 

[davesparks]

I would just use a switch with an indicator mounted next to the loft hatch.

 

[HaywardI]

In principle nothing wrong with it but why complicate it with a further switch in the attic?

Good question and to be honest I didn't think of this, doh! However there is a little winkle that I omitted to keep it simple. The landing lights are actually switched on and off via a pir sensor (kids never seem to turn lights off) so the loft lights will be switching on and off with the same frequency which feels like a waste, but I won't be rule this solution out. Thank you
[automerge]1589305420[/automerge]

If your that worried put a time lag switch on a surface parttress, in the loft, next to hatch.

Another good answer, however, there is nothing worse than a time lag switch, switching the lights off when ever you spend a longer than the time lag lasts!!!

 

[DefyG]

Another good answer, however, there is nothing worse than a time lag switch, switching the lights off when ever you spend a longer than the time lag lasts!!!

But the PIR timer could do exactly the same thing!

 

[HaywardI]

Maybe he doesn't want to go in the loft every time he goes upstairs.
Just supply and break the landing sw L at the loft switch.

Correct. Interesting solution and again hadn't considered. However as you may have seen the landing lights are on a pir sensor with no two way switching. How would you suggest this is wired?
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If you take the landing lights power (i.e. as fed to the lights themselves after switching) through a simple switch on/off switch to the loft you would get:

Landing Switch​	Landing Lights​	Loft Switch​	Loft Lights​
On​	On​	On​	On​
Off​	Off​	On​	Off​
On​	On​	Off​	Off​
Off​	Off​	Off​	Off​

Is that not what you want?
[automerge]1589303829[/automerge]
Or just use a switch that has a built in indicator to show it is switched on, such as:

https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/briti...itch-white-with-neon-with-white-inserts/66238

Not sure how this would work? When the loft switch is on, I would want the loft lights on! Oh wait, i see what your suggesting. The thing is if I left the loft switch on every time the landing lights were on, the loft lights would switch on unnecessarily. But it would resolve the primary issue of the loft lights being left on for months on end without noticing. But the killer is something I omitted to say in my original answer to keep it simple, the landing lights are switched on and off by a pir on the landing therefore when I'm in the loft the lights will time out on me.

 

[DefyG]

I omitted to say in my original answer to keep it simple

I thought you came on the forum for the answer?

 

[SJD]

If I read this correctly you want the loft lights to only be on if the landing light is on, and the landing light is PIR controlled … so when you are in the loft and the landing light times out, you are plunged into darkness? Or did I misunderstand something?

 

[pc1966]

But the killer is something I omitted to say in my original answer to keep it simple, the landing lights are switched on and off by a pir on the landing therefore when I'm in the loft the lights will time out on me.

Why not put the loft on another PIR then? That should avoid the issue of being on a long time and not knowing, and comes on when you are up there.

But realistically a switch with indicator is a far simpler & easier solution!

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I think the original intention was to use the landing light as the tell-tale indicator for the loft light by wiring them in parallel. So once the loft light switch is on, a) the PIR going off won't put the landing in darkness and b) if the landing light cannot be turned off you will known that the loft light switch has been left on.

Perfectly safe provided lights are both on the same circuit, but a bit strange and confusing to anyone else. I would definitely opt for a conventional indicator on the switch.

 

[HaywardI]

If I read this correctly you want the loft lights to only be on if the landing light is on, and the landing light is PIR controlled … so when you are in the loft and the landing light times out, you are plunged into darkness? Or did I misunderstand something?

Not quite, I want to be able to switch both on independently of each other, but I want the landing light to be on when the Loft lights are on so it serves as a visual indicator the loft lights are on.
The problem with wiring the loft lights into the landing light is therefore two fold. firstly the loft lights will switch on when the landing lights are on, but then if I go into the loft the PIR timer on the landing lights will probably switch them off while I'm up there as there is nothing happening on the landing to keep them on.
[automerge]1589362932[/automerge]

Why not put the loft on another PIR then? That should avoid the issue of being on a long time and not knowing, and comes on when you are up there.

But realistically a switch with indicator is a far simpler & easier solution!

And cheaper. Also a PIR in the loft will get triggered by wind in the loft (it's well ventilated) as well as the occasional unwelcome visitor!
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I think the original intention was to use the landing light as the tell-tale indicator for the loft light by wiring them in parallel. So once the loft light switch is on, a) the PIR going off won't put the landing in darkness and b) if the landing light cannot be turned off you will known that the loft light switch has been left on.

Perfectly safe provided lights are both on the same circuit, but a bit strange and confusing to anyone else. I would definitely opt for a conventional indicator on the switch.

Lucien, I'm going to go with this plan for now, I did consider an indicator switch, but it's not much use when the switch is out of sight.

However, next time I perform a little project like this I will ask for ideas before jumping in.

For everybody who has contributed I want to say a big thank you, you have given my ideas I hadn't considered and none of them bad ideas, it's much appreciated

 

[sinewove]

I thought you came on the forum for the answer?

Find a perm lighting live in the loft,then feed pir and loft light from that?Make sure you use the upstairs neutral.?.S

 

[AJshep]

Seems very complicated just for a loft light. Can't you tuck a neon indication in a wardrobe or cupboard upstairs so it's not on show.
If you wired from the loft light switch, through a a switched fused spur (with neon) then onto your loft light, you then have the option to isolate the loft light from the switched fused spur if you found you accidentally left the loft light on.

I'd think I'd rather that then someone turn off the landing light while I'm trying to work in the loft.

 

[pirate]

Why not fit a contact switch to the frame for the loft hatch, so when you close it, the lights go off?

 

[telectrix]

Why not fit a contact switch to the frame for the loft hatch, so when you close it, the lights go off?

common sense at last

 

[pc1966]

common sense at last

These days common sense is like a superhero's magic power!

 

[telectrix]

These days common sense is like a superhero's magic power!

don't tell pirate, he'll get too big for his sea boots.