Does Part P need Reform?

[Pete999]

Not sure if any of you have picked up Septembers PE yet I was out shopping and picked up a copy fro an Independent Wholesaler.

I am passionate about this issue and have received several " Old, Dumb, Dislike or Disagree markers for my threads", but hey I have broad shoulders, so no worries there then.
The article ends with 8 replies from, what I assume are time served Electricians, waiting for some cries of "Oh no not Pete 999 winging again about 18 Day Domestic installer courses, seems I'm not the only one concerned about this.

The replies range from I'm a timed served sparks and not allowed to do work in my own house apparently, to should Consumers Units have a serial number so only registered Electricians be allowed to buy them, the later from an overseas Sparks, judging by the name. Each reply has it's own validity however controversial. worth a read if you get hold of a copy, rather than just looking at the offers.

Should be getting loads of Old, Dumb responses etc, far to long in the tooth to be worried though, there was one reply which hit the nail on the head, verbatim, " Gas Safe certificates for properties are law, non compliance to the building Regs is illegal, but non compliance to BS7671 is not. Another fundamental difference", well said to the author of that letter.

 

[Midwest]

" Gas Safe certificates for properties are law, non compliance to the building Regs is illegal, but non compliance to BS7671 is not. Another fundamental difference", well said to the author of that letter.

According to the Secretary of State, the best way to comply with the Building regs is to comply with BS7671 (can't remember the exact wording, and can't be arsed to research, 'cos I'm orrff to cook the tea).

As Building regs are statutory, one fits hand in glove with the other. Just needs a few more successful prosecutions. That Kieran bloke would be on my hit list.

 

[Strima]

Part P is a complete waste of time in its current guise. It either needs full reform or binning.

 

[ferg]

Part what?

Ahh that thing you have to deal with in Englandshire.

 

[Toneyz]

" Gas Safe certificates for properties are law, non compliance to the building Regs is illegal, but non compliance to BS7671 is not. Another fundamental difference"

The Part P should have been like this. There should have been one organisation like Gas Safe maybe the NICEIC as they were already formed to upheld standards, instead you have different schemes competing for our custom and to make a profit. Too commercialised instead of upholding of standards. There also needs to be more checking of the electricians of companies that are doing the work ie suitably qualified at the office stage of an assessment.

 

[JAWS]

Do you have to be a time served electrican to change a socket, in other words how do you differentiate who can do what.

 

[buzzlightyear]

three words, waist of time.

 

[MDJ]

I am passionate about this issue and have received several " Old, Dumb, Dislike or Disagree markers for my threads",

Never from me mate, your one of the best sparks I have seen on any forum, keep up the good work, MDJ is by your side.

 

[Joshua]

It was a nice idea that was badly implemented.

In theory I could be a complete cowboy and do shocking work all year long. As long as I take care on 1 or 2 jobs a year for my assessment then I'm good. It should be a random inspection once a year not a prearranged one

it used to mean something when you said you were NICEIC registered but now they're letting anyone join who's done a short course. Now we're inundated with domestic installers who insist they're fully qualified electricians?

Then you've got legitimate companies who are registered, their QS passes the annual assessment but then they employ unqualified people to do the majority of their work? Surely the CPS's should step in and vet a percentage of the employees and not just one guy on a few jobs?

Basically "Part P Qualified" means you're half a spark, mere static to be honest.

 

[Toneyz]

It was a nice idea that was badly implemented.

In theory I could be a complete cowboy and do shocking work all year long. As long as I take care on 1 or 2 jobs a year for my assessment then I'm good. It should be a random inspection once a year not a prearranged one

it used to mean something when you said you were NICEIC registered but now they're letting anyone join who's done a short course. Now we're inundated with domestic installers who insist they're fully qualified electricians?

Then you've got legitimate companies who are registered, their QS passes the annual assessment but then they employ unqualified people to do the majority of their work? Surely the CPS's should step in and vet a percentage of the employees and not just one guy on a few jobs?

Basically "Part P Qualified" means you're half a spark, mere static to be honest.

These are exactly the points I have come to conclude.

 

[Octopus]

Part p would make sense if non compliance rewarded people with criminal records .....

 

[Toneyz]

Part p would make sense if non compliance rewarded people with criminal records .....

I didn't want to give you a disagree but I think it would be the last result though.

 

[Octopus]

I didn't want to give you a disagree but I think it would be the last result though.

It’s all very well having all the sections to the building regs but very few seem to be adhered to ....

 

[Bellendian]

Gas safe is obviously the perfect model...none of the gas safe fitters I work with have ever found any cowboy gas work, ever. Since it's illegal it just doesn't happen!

Illegal, legal, regulated, or unregulated, there will always be rubbish work carried out by the ill informed, lazy or just plain dishonest.

I have no real interest in any more legislation or regulation being imposed, and even if Part P didn't exist, we'd probably remain Nic or ECA anyways! So no change in terms of admin or fees really.

So for me, it is what it is, and at least most homeowners are now vaguely aware that there is some form of restriction on their bodgery!

 

[Octopus]

Gas safe is obviously the perfect model...none of the gas safe fitters I work with have ever found any cowboy gas work, ever. Since it's illegal it just doesn't happen!

Hum .... not sure I agree with that. .....

I know a plumber who isn’t gas safe, who installs boilers and get a registered chap to sign them off....

Then there are customers who buy boilers off the internet ......

 

[Bellendian]

I was being sarcastic murdoch! Of course ---- gas work gets knocked out all the time! That was my point!

 

[Octopus]

I was being sarcastic murdoch! Of course **** gas work gets knocked out all the time! That was my point!

Which takes us neatly back to my previous point .... what is the point of these regs if they are not policed and non compliance acted on ...

 

[static zap]

, " Gas Safe certificates for properties are law, non compliance to the building Regs is illegal, but non compliance to BS7671 is not..

Is it as simple as the fewer deaths of "Innocent bystanders"
--- ( No one official involved below -- unless failed electrical trainee, 18 day blunders)-
Both Gas and Electricity are fiddled , a certain number end in disaster.
Expecting higher death toll/adjacent property damage for gas explosions ?

 

[sparkdog]

I don't think Gas Safe is totally "gas tight" either, from what I observe.

 

[solarsavings]

There are at least as many disgruntled gas fitters as there are electricians moaning about "their industry" all of them demanding that something is "done"
They want restricted sales, more regulation, tougher sanctions for those that don't follow the rules, break the law. Blah blah blah.

For the most part they seem, to me at least, to be old blokes who have had their day or those that struggle to earn a decent living, or just miserable bassas in general.

My father-in-law has wasted many years of his life moaning about the way the "game" has changed. He hasn't been able to change a single thing with his moaning and neither will any of you.

 

[Pete999]

There are at least as many disgruntled gas fitters as there are electricians moaning about "their industry" all of them demanding that something is "done"
They want restricted sales, more regulation, tougher sanctions for those that don't follow the rules, break the law. Blah blah blah.

For the most part they seem, to me at least, to be old blokes who have had their day or those that struggle to earn a decent living, or just miserable bassas in general.

My father-in-law has wasted many years of his life moaning about the way the "game" has changed. He hasn't been able to change a single thing with his moaning and neither will any of you.

Ohhh touched a nerve did I?

 

[solarsavings]

Not mine Pete, my life is too valuable to worry about anything you have to say.

 

[Pete999]

Not mine Pete, my life is too valuable to worry about anything you have to say.

Deleted

 

[Octopus]

So in summary, nothing will change, the building regs are created for the people, but nobody polices them

So why bother with them at all?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Differences between gas and electrical work:
All gas work should be undertaken by someone registered with Gas Safe.
No requirement for electricians to be registered.

When making an alteration to a gas installation, the engineer is responsible for the whole system, not just the part worked on.
An electrician is only responsible for their work.

Gas work has only one registration scheme.
Electrical work has 7 or 8 different registration schemes.

Faulty gas work caused an explosion in a tower block.
As yet (excluding Grendel), no faulty electrical work has damaged a tower block.

 

[Nigel]

Part P is perfectly fine.

 

[AJshep]

You always going to get cowboys my issue is more with the schemes if the schemes only let qualified people register then that would be a huge step IMO.
Those that are qualified and are not members of a scheme should be able to register with their council's provide proof of insurance and quals then they should be able to self certify.

I have an issue with people calling themselves electricians when they are not, Its not fair, to those that completed our trainning, its not fair to the 3rd year apprentice that is still on a trainning wage and its not fair to the customer who I believe is being misled.

When Mrs Smith rings up a NIC contractor to get her fuseboard changed she expects to get someone qualified.

 

[static zap]

.....
As yet (excluding Grendel), no faulty electrical work has damaged a tower block.

A source blames 90% of domestic electrical fires on appliances (incl. poorly maintained ones ) Gren fld the fridge was cause.
(Wonder if extensions are in the mix - a sign of not spending on instal)
- Don't stand (Lean?) stuff on the Microwave ..a new nag for me -
(I've got a whole shelf supported !)

 

[Pete999]

A source blames 90% of domestic electrical fires on appliances (incl. poorly maintained ones ) Gren fld the fridge was cause.
(Wonder if extensions are in the mix - a sign of not spending on instal)
- Don't stand stuff on the Microwave ..a new nag for me -
(I've got a whole shelf supported !)

Is that why the LFB was part and partial in getting the IET to insist on Non combustible Consumers Units in domestic Dwellings?

 

[solarsavings]

the building regs are created for the people, but nobody polices them

I have worked in quite a few counties in England and can't think of one where the building regs are not enforced(obvious provisions apply).

If you mean that work is being carried out by those that chose not to comply or notify work. Then I think you should tells us how you think you can force them to comply when most of that work goes unnoticed.

I'm afraid we have to accept that some chose to commit all manor of crime regardless of how stringent the policing or penalties applied.

 

[static zap]

Is that why the LFB was part and partial in getting the IET to insist on Non combustible Consumers Units in domestic Dwellings?

So we need public info films , like green cross code man ...
Don't fill your CU cupboard with paper+card kindling !
Plug your EV into a "Posh" charge socket .... next.

 

[Octopus]

I'm afraid we have to accept that some chose to commit all manor of crime regardless of how stringent the policing or penalties applied.

You are missing my point - what is the point of the regs unless they are enforced and people get criminal records for non compliance ....

As it stands Part P states "you may be prosecuted" - it should state "you will be prosecuted"

 

[Midwest]

They have been prosecutions for non compliance with Part P regs, and not just the failure to notify. Just not that many, and not really a head line grabber.

Recently near me, three guys were injured on a new development, required the FB to get them out, and Air Ambulance was deployed. Not made one single local headline or piece.

 

[solarsavings]

As it stands Part P states "you may be prosecuted" - it should state "you will be prosecuted"

And you think that will solve what exactly?

 

[SparkySy]

The problem is even change won't solve the problems caused by part P dodgy people will still continue to do rough jobs and us guys that comply with all the regulations will still be doing as we do, and still see and be correcting the dodgy work. It is the human way I'm afraid no amount of prosecution or change is going to make it any different! Also it can't be radically changed as there are way WAY too many people/companies/organisations making a shed load of money from it and won't let it diminish their millions! It's a sad state of affairs that is rife in all aspects of government/ local authorities/ big companies in fact globally! Until everyone stands up together in unison nothing will change, and that wouldn't happen as people will never stand together.

 

[Octopus]

And you think that will solve what exactly?

It will stop a large number of the chancers doing dodgy things ......... and raise the profess a bit.

 

[Midwest]

It will stop a large number of the chancers doing dodgy things ......... and raise the profess a bit.

You have got to balance that, with the likelihood of a successful prosecution, the cost, whether its in the public good etc. I think that its the local authority's remit to carry out that decision making & the prosecution, and not a body such as the CPS. Do they have the time and ability to do so? Perhaps if that was changed, things might change.

 

[Octopus]

You have got to balance that, with the likelihood of a successful prosecution, the cost, whether its in the public good etc. I think that its the local authority's remit to carry out that decision making & the prosecution, and not a body such as the CPS. Do they have the time and ability to do so? Perhaps if that was changed, things might change.

Hum ........ homeowner knows identity of contractor .........

anyway who's side are you on?

 

[Midwest]

Hum ........ homeowner knows identity of contractor .........

anyway who's side are you on?

The practical. The intention is to carry out a criminal prosecution of someone; you've have to prove the elements of the offence, not just the persons identity.

 

[solarsavings]

Murdoch, I wonder whose side you on when you want to spend more of our money and time on something that, at best, would catch an additional few.
Do you believe any further regulation wouldn't impact you as you're one of the good guys or do you accept it as a price you are prepared to pay.

Gassafe gets mentioned a lot on here as an example of how it should be done. If that is something you are hoping for then you should know:
The number on the gas register has more than doubled since Gassafe took over the register from Corgi. They run the register with less inspectors. They make fewer inspections. Some have not been seen by an inspector for many years, most are at 5 yearly intervals unless they are *!&%e.
They can do that because they know while newer recruits are completing shorter courses and having poorer training they haven't seen a significant rise in gas related deaths or incidents.

The annual cost of being registered is £153+vat

Gassafe do prosecute those who carryout dangerous gas related work (a few have been jailed) or those that work on gas while unregistered if they fail to heed the warning(s) they are given.
They will also threaten to prosecute anyone that claims to be registered when not.

I wonder if that is the ideal model for policing Part-P.