Ring main.

[James]

@SparkyChick

I have been having similar thoughts,
I don't think its right, and its not something I would install as new.

however I have just been browsing the book, and nothing is jumping out to say I couldn't do it if I wanted to.

I think we can mostly all agree that it is certainly not best practice but if someone could point me to a reg number it would make me feel better.

 

[Pete999]

I'm not saying I would do this because I wouldn't install like this, but I am going to play devils advocate.

Which regulations does such an arrangement breach?

And how would two ring final circuits installed in accordance with the regulations connected to the same 32A MCB be dangerous?

As I say I wouldn't do it, except as a temporary measure to restore supply, so I'm just curious about the thought process behind the statements.

It may not disagree with any regulations, but SC you surely can see the apparent dangers of applying such a circuit.

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@SparkyChick

I have been having similar thoughts,
I don't think its right, and its not something I would install as new.

however I have just been browsing the book, and nothing is jumping out to say I couldn't do it if I wanted to.

I think we can mostly all agree that it is certainly not best practice but if someone could point me to a reg number it would make me feel better.

Don't think you need a reg number SC look up the description of a circuit.

 

[Mark Wright]

Yeah fairly interesting and I'm not saying I would do but considering Table H2.1 unlimited Sockets in 100m2 - probably could be considered as extending the ring without extra danger.

 

[davesparks]

It may not disagree with any regulations, but SC you surely can see the apparent dangers of applying such a circuit.

Don't think you need a reg number SC look up the description of a circuit.

I fully agree that this is incorrect and should not have been done.

But having said that what are the apparent dangers? I don't see any particular danger attributable to this.

The definition of a circuit is based around everything that is connected to a single way in a distribution board, so this would still count as one circuit, although it is nom-standard.
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You could put more than one radial on a MCB but its not good practice.

You can have two legs of a radial cir uit connected to an MCB, but that is not two circuits. Also it is not bad practice.

 

[DPG]

Bad design does not always have a reg number I guess.

 

[James]

CIRCUIT:
An assembly of electrical equipment supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrent by the same protective device(s).

I think the arrangement above matches the description

 

[Mark Wright]

I did wonder because the Design project limits you to circuits of 30m so I had several lighting circuit only rated about 2Amps I wondered in real life if I could in theory just put three of these say in to a single 6Amps MCB or maybe even more into a 10Amp MCB.
I think I'd be pushing my luck but couldn't find anything dangerous about it.

 

[radiohead]

The original question asks whether this is a breach of regulations. Nobody disputes it is poor practice, but the opinions of experienced people are not regulations and never have been.

 

[James]

@JKMRK1

wow, look what you have started here!!

I like the conversation thread,
you are listed as a trainee, when you get your qualifications you will be a qualified electrician. just look at the different ways the regs have been interpreted and peoples opinions on what is good, bad and indifferent practice.

as your time and experience in the trade expands, you will start to build an idea of what is a good installation and will also be more opinionated about what is not ok.

bottom line for me when I consider things that are not accurately defined, would I be happy if this was installed at my daughters house?
it normally guides my mind in the right direction.

 

[JKMRK1]

@JKMRK1

@JKMRK1

wow, look what you have started here!!

I like the conversation thread,
you are listed as a trainee, when you get your qualifications you will be a qualified electrician. just look at the different ways the regs have been interpreted and peoples opinions on what is good, bad and indifferent practice.

as your time and experience in the trade expands, you will start to build an idea of what is a good installation and will also be more opinionated about what is not ok.

bottom line for me when I consider things that are not accurately defined, would I be happy if this was installed at my daughters house?
it normally guides my mind in the right direction.

Tell me about it did think it would get so many mixed opinions!

Always tell myself it doesn't hurt to have a second opinion on things and as I wasnt certain about this that's what I done.

Thank you for the positive outlook and advice ?

wow, look what you have started here!!

I like the conversation thread,
you are listed as a trainee, when you get your qualifications you will be a qualified electrician. just look at the different ways the regs have been interpreted and peoples opinions on what is good, bad and indifferent practice.

as your time and experience in the trade expands, you will start to build an idea of what is a good installation and will also be more opinionated about what is not ok.

bottom line for me when I consider things that are not accurately defined, would I be happy if this was installed at my daughters house?
it normally guides my mind in the right direction.

Tell me about it did think it would get so many mixed opinions! Always tell myself it doesn't hurt to have a second opinion on things and as I wasnt certain about this that's what I done. Thank you for the positive outlook and advice ?

 

[Mark Wright]

Going the other way round and this is from a European web site

"The rules for ring wiring say that the rated current of the cable must be at least two-thirds of the rating of the protective device. This means that the risk of prolonged cable overload can be considered minimal. However, in practice it is very rare to find a ring with a different protective device than a 30 A fuse, a 30 A circuit breaker or a 32 A circuit breaker and a cable with a cross-section different from the one mentioned above."

right or wrong what's the common response to finding a Ring on a 20A MCB or wired in 4mm??

 

[ipf]

Just a point.
Two rings or not, in general, what are FIRST thoughts on four (or more) cables in a circuit breaker terminal, whilst carrying out an EICR?
How long is a piece of string, maybe?

 

[radiohead]

Just a point.
Two rings or not, in general, what are FIRST thoughts on four (or more) cables in a circuit breaker terminal, whilst carrying out an EICR?
How long is a piece of string, maybe?

It would depend on an informed engineering judgement as to whether the conductors were securely terminated for me.

 

[James]

Just a point.
Two rings or not, in general, what are FIRST thoughts on four (or more) cables in a circuit breaker terminal, whilst carrying out an EICR?
How long is a piece of string, maybe?

It says to me that things have probably been done on a tight budget, i.e. the consumer unit has not got enough ways for what they want to supply.

look out for other things that may have been overlooked!

 

[DPG]

It says to me that things have probably been done on a tight budget, i.e. the consumer unit has not got enough ways for what they want to supply.

look out for other things that may have been overlooked!

But there's a spare way in this particular CU.

 

[radiohead]

Tell me about it did think it would get so many mixed opinions! Always tell myself it doesn't hurt to have a second opinion on things and as I wasnt certain about this that's what I done. Thank you for the positive outlook and advice ?

I dont think you have got mixed opinions, nobody has said this is anything other than bad practice. But the question concerns regulations, and as yet nobody has given an actual regulation that this breaches, and throwing hands up in horror does not count as a regulation.

 

[ChipFanDave]

For all we know it could only be two double socket outlets in the circuit.
I propose we call these bow-tie final circuits from now on!

 

[James]

But there's a spare way in this particular CU.

Still, tight budget could also mean tight on time, not got another breaker in the box?
never mind, its Friday the pub is open, just stick it in the other breaker and we are out of here!!
when you see an obvious short cut like that it makes me look for others.

 

[Risteard]

You could put more than one radial on a MCB but its not good practice.

You couldn't, because by definition it would be one radial.

2 Rings on 32mcb is dangerous are you sure it's not 2 radials?

How is it dangerous, apart from the potential issue with the four conductors in the terminals/cage clamp (which although crap is unlikely to be an issue in real terms)?

 

[DPG]

Still, tight budget could also mean tight on time, not got another breaker in the box?
never mind, its Friday the pub is open, just stick it in the other breaker and we are out of here!!
when you see an obvious short cut like that it makes me look for others.

Yep, fair point.