Bonding of Water pipes (plastic incomes)

[newfutile]

Just wondered what opinion people have of bonding of short lengths of copper water pipes, this is in the communal area of flats .
above the copper it goes back into plastic and appear to enter the building in a blue plastic pipe

 

[JBW175]

waste of cable, no need to bond.

 

[loz2754]

Looks potentially dangerous to me.
The reason I say that is it looks as though the pipes go to 3 different metered supplies, which are all connected together.
None of them are likely to bring in an earth potential as they are supplied by a plastic pipe coming out of the ground.
But as they are connected to each other, an earth fault that could cause the potential of the water pipe to rise in one property, would also cause the potential to rise on the pipes in the other properties.

Edit: scratch that. I should have read the post correctly. It seems the pipes go back to plastic after the copper. In which case there is no need for any bonding at all, but it's not potentially dangerous.

 

[cliffed]

Had the Niceic man last week,& asked about that,& utilmately the cooper pipework coming of the plastic.
He said why would you earth that there’s no reason to earth that,where would the earth come from on the copper.
Well from central heating,Immersion heater white goods etc.
Old school sparkies would earth anything back in the day.

 

[GBDamo]

Back in the day there seemed to be an surplus in the supply of 6mm copper G/Y cable.

Less facetious, the proportion of conducting incoming gas/water mains supplies was much higher and the regs were written to reflect the norm, it became easier just to assume they were extraneous and bond everything and without RCDs , supplementary bond everything else.

No need to stop and think, bond it all and let God decide.

Anything built in the last 30-40 years has switched to plastic mains incomers along with a significant proportion of upgrades and RCDs removing the liklihood of extraneous paths and the necessity for bondage.

So now the norm is not to bond unless required which forces the spark to understand the reasoning and theory behind bonding as they now have to justify its omission.

A lot of old sparks will still bond and even supplementary bond as they never had to understand the requirements, they just needed to know it needed doing and how, not the why.

The problem arises when one of these older sparks is supervising a new spark who hasn't bonded and knows it was not required.

This is where their pride tests your diplomacy and technical knowledge, good luck there!

 

[cliffed]

Back in the day there seemed to be an surplus in the supply of 6mm copper G/Y cable.

Less facetious, the proportion of conducting incoming gas/water mains supplies was much higher and the regs were written to reflect the norm, it became easier just to assume they were extraneous and bond everything and without RCDs , supplementary bond everything else.

No need to stop and think, bond it all and let God decide.

Anything built in the last 30-40 years has switched to plastic mains incomers along with a significant proportion of upgrades and RCDs removing the liklihood of extraneous paths and the necessity for bondage.

So now the norm is not to bond unless required which forces the spark to understand the reasoning and theory behind bonding as they now have to justify its omission.

A lot of old sparks will still bond and even supplementary bond as they never had to understand the requirements, they just needed to know it needed doing and how, not the why.

The problem arises when one of these older sparks is supervising a new spark who hasn't bonded and knows it was not required.

This is where their pride tests your diplomacy and technical knowledge, good luck there!

Yea agree,but with the 18th & the new & older generation,we now all know not too bond,& the reasoning behind this.
Its took all these years to realise the dangers involved in bonding nearly everything possible.
Remembering back in the 80’s we were using 2 boxes of bonding clips per house,main & supplementary bonding,the joys of getting under the sink top,looking for the top hat to fix the earth onto.

 

[GBDamo]

Yea agree,but with the 18th & the new & older generation,we now all know not too bond,& the reasoning behind this.
Its took all these years to realise the dangers involved in bonding nearly everything possible.
Remembering back in the 80’s we were using 2 boxes of bonding clips per house,main & supplementary bonding,the joys of getting under the sink top,looking for the top hat to fix the earth onto.

Very true but, there's knowing the reasons and being able to confidently and competently explain them.

A lot of people fear being challenged so go the belt and braces route.

 

[Ian1981]

Yep everyone bonds the gas on a new build despite the fact it’s a yellow non conductive pipe supplied in the ground but they see copper in the meter box and bond it anyway because that’s how it’s always been done.

Even more laughable is when bottled gas gets bonded....?‍?‍

 

[cliffed]

Yep everyone bonds the gas on a new build despite the fact it’s a yellow non conductive pipe supplied in the ground but they see copper in the meter box and bond it anyway because that’s how it’s always been done.

Even more laughable is when bottled gas gets bonded....?‍?‍

Yea good point..it’s always metal into house with gas.

 

[Selfmade]

I agree if it comes out of the ground as plastic and goes back to plastic before entering the individual flats it does not need bonding. I would say if it goes into individual flats as metal, it needs bonding even if it's plastic where it comes out of the ground. I'm pretty sure the regs say bond it if it's liable to introduce a potential, normally earth potential. Note the 'normally'. So if it could introduce a potential from another flat - maybe from a different phase - it still needs bonding.

 

[DefyG]

Even more laughable is when bottled gas gets bonded...

Bottled or Calor cylinder?
Had situations where Calor cylinder (Above and below gound) has used copper pipe (below ground) to supply house but not with freestanding gas bottles.

As for the OP's question, agree bonding is not required.

 

[SJD]

Disabled toilet, bonding to both ends of the metal rail that surrounds the cistern pipe, ... perhaps it is to guard against Electromagnetic Effects?

 

[DPG]

Disabled toilet, bonding to both ends of the metal rail that surrounds the cistern pipe, ... perhaps it is to guard against Electromagnetic Effects?

That is amazing!

 

[DefyG]

bonding to both ends of the metal rail that surrounds the cistern pipe, ...

When you are a numpty, you do as you are told by a higher ranking Numpty!

 

[cliffed]

Disabled toilet, bonding to both ends of the metal rail that surrounds the cistern pipe, ... perhaps it is to guard against Electromagnetic Effects?

Rough.

 

[moose]

Wow!

Bonding was an art form in the day. Curly swirls of pure waste of time.

I myself was apart of it, but I also knew then some things made no sense as you do today. We where the same as you are today.

To say No bonding is necessary is quite silly.

The big issue is what happens when your RCD fails or your RCBO no longer works. What is the next function to help?

I myself always get the basic bonds done and make sure the plumber on site gets me a 6inch Copper in the point of entry. Or whatever they are prepared to function for there pipe size wise.

If unlucky to not speak then you cant bond. Make a note.

Good luck.

 

[DefyG]

a 6inch Copper in the point of entry

But if either side is >22kohms what is the point? Another curly swirl of time and material wasted! RCD failure wont make any difference.

 

[moose]

No curly anymore. makes no sense. What if its not 22. when fail occurs. things change over time. thats what its all about the unexpected occurrence..

 

[DPG]

Wow!

Bonding was an art form in the day. Curly swirls of pure waste of time.

I myself was apart of it, but I also knew then some things made no sense as you do today. We where the same as you are today.

To say No bonding is necessary is quite silly.

The big issue is what happens when your RCD fails or your RCBO no longer works. What is the next function to help?

I myself always get the basic bonds done and make sure the plumber on site gets me a 6inch Copper in the point of entry. Or whatever they are prepared to function for there pipe size wise.

If unlucky to not speak then you cant bond. Make a note.

Good luck.

Don't see the point of adding the 6" piece of copper to a plastic water incomer.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

perhaps it is to guard against Electromagnetic Effects?

It's to increase the chance of actually making contact through the power-coat. Personally I would like to see separate terminals drilled and tapped into the mounting flanges, or at the very least the coating removed and A2 star washers under the lugs, plus a strap to a bared section near the centre of the rail, coated in graphited grease to prevent corrosion.

 

[moose]

I'm seeing a problem with electrician's here.

Why do we need a bond to any item. Lets get rid of all CPC its not needed for anything some nations don't use CPC. so why use it. RCD don't use CPC its a voltage difference.

Do we use it for testing only. Its a copper bit of cable to mean anything.

There is the 19th edition soon it maybe a cost saver.

 

[loz2754]

Moose I'm not sure whether you're trying to wind us up here or not!
A circuit protective conductor is not a bonding conductor and serves a different purpose.
So even if the bonding to water and gas is not needed in a certain situation, the CPCs would still be absolutely an essential part of every circuit.

 

[moose]

Why? RCD do not use cpc

 

[loz2754]

The CPC is there to ensure ADS works in the event of an earth fault.

 

[moose]

I am joking but my question is why

 

[moose]

sertain situation

 

[loz2754]

Because we in the UK work to BS7671 wiring regulations. BS7671 explains what, why and how in parts 4 and 5.

 

[moose]

ADS is Bonding of what exactly water / Gas / Boiler/ etc
so why miss them out because you didn't ask a plumber ?

 

[loz2754]

Actually ADS was formerly know as EEBADS. Earthed equipotential bonding, automatic disconnection of supply. 2 different but related systems.
The bonding is to ensure that all exposed and extraneous conductive parts will rise to the same voltage potential for the duration of an earth fault. ADS ensures that the fault will be disconnected automatically within a specified time.
I'm sure you know all this. Just not sure why you are questioning the way we do things.
Anyway, time for some beauty sleep methinks...

 

[DPG]

ADS is Bonding of what exactly water / Gas / Boiler/ etc
so why miss them out because you didn't ask a plumber ?

I don't think you fully understand the difference between earthing and bonding.

 

[UNG]

I'm seeing a problem with electrician's here.

Why do we need a bond to any item. Lets get rid of all CPC its not needed for anything some nations don't use CPC. so why use it. RCD don't use CPC its a voltage difference.

Do we use it for testing only. Its a copper bit of cable to mean anything.

There is the 19th edition soon it maybe a cost saver.

And exactly what is the problem you are seeing with the electrician's here ?

 

[telectrix]

as loz2754 clearly states. bond ing has nothing to do with ADS.
still see loads of hot/cold pipes linked under sinks though. that's 2 x BS951's into van stock and 6" of 6.0mm into my scrap collection.

 

[Ian1981]

A lot of people mistaking believe that you bond a water, gas or heating pipe incase the pipe becomes live. Obviously that is not why we carry out bonding, however it is obvious that electricians who believe this really need to go back to the basics and the understanding of what an extraneous conductive part is and bonding principles.

 

[moose]

To all I hope you have a better new year this year rather than the one we just had. I also want to apologise for the use of the word electricians and all quote. Was below the belt. As there are some very clever electricians in this forum.

I was in my mind looking at a blue pipe and from my memory of that blue pipe was a question where the OP said is it worth bonding.

My ADS is - If you can, make sure you can on site if the plumber is there, get it done. If not make a note.

As for bonding. I still make sure that a property has the correct figures at distance example a bathroom bath point. Worst I have seen is 0.14ohms and added a CPC to the metal bath. I thought that was reasonable. You will die still in the bath as unfortunately you need a faster trip time than RCD and RCDO can give at present.
I believe under 6ms, but tech changes all the time. Lets hope.

 

[DPG]

To all I hope you have a better new year this year rather than the one we just had. I also want to apologise for the use of the word electricians and all quote. Was below the belt. As there are some very clever electricians in this forum.

I was in my mind looking at a blue pipe and from my memory of that blue pipe was a question where the OP said is it worth bonding.

My ADS is - If you can, make sure you can on site if the plumber is there, get it done. If not make a note.

As for bonding. I still make sure that a property has the correct figures at distance example a bathroom bath point. Worst I have seen is 0.14ohms and added a CPC to the metal bath. I thought that was reasonable. You will die still in the bath as unfortunately you need a faster trip time than RCD and RCDO can give at present.
I believe under 6ms, but tech changes all the time. Lets hope.

Indeed, and a happy new to you too.

I think perhaps it is partly a terminology thing. The cable to the bath would be a bonding cable, not a CPC.

 

[richy3333]

sorry but is @moose Buzz in disguise? ?

 

[moose]

Yeah I just call it all CPC usually working get that cable to there. etc/ I not do many of this full on talk stuff. Defo a what you said DPG as I don't know how to quote or praise people and other computer stuff.

I'm software lame, but I can build PC great fun.