Discuss Advice on Unsatisfactory EICR report in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

naylorpd

Regular EF Member
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Baku, Azerbaijan
I've had an EICR on the house in Reading that I rent out with some unsatisfactory points and I'm looking for some advice.

Broadly, there are no big surprises because I know that the CU is old, has no RCDs and needs to be changed out. But:

1) Circuits not buried more than 50mm....the house was built in the 1980s (with old red/black T&E) and the cable depth is what it is. Is this an item that they have to report and I just need to ignore?

Actually I doubt that the cable depth is more than 50mm even in my brand new house as it's only slab n dab plasterboard and the total depth is not even 50mm...but that's a different issue. This house is brick & breeze-block.

4, 9) Ceiling rose needs replacing, unswitched socket. I don't mind paying for things I can't do, but I'm perfectly capable to do this myself - but would I then need to get another EICR to show a clean report? So is there a real benefit to get the same sparky to fix this? If it's done at the same time as the CU presumably the cost will be quite small as the call-out is covered.

2) Identification on light switch wires - what is needed? Sounds like something else I can do. But see next point - if all the switches need to come off anyway to find an earth leakage, perhaps the cost is quite small?

10) High earth leakage readings...this is the big issue. What I've been told is "However if a new consumer unit was fitted the RCD safety devices would be continually tripping as there are three circuits that contain earth leakage currents that would be high enough cause constant tripping. There are other relatively minor issues that are fairly common and relatively easy to rectify. So, before we can even consider changing the consumer unit these faults need to be found and rectified. There are three circuits that need investigating, the two main socket outlet circuits and the downstairs lighting circuit. These will not be easy to find and remedy but I would suggest that myself and another electrician would spend a day there and see what we can find, this would be at a cost of £500.00."

I suppose what I'm concerned about here is:
a) is there anything I could do myself to trace these faults?
b) does it need two people and is £500 for a day reasonable
c) it doesn't actually give me any guarantees that they'll find the faults, so it's really just taking a punt
d) they could find it in an hour and I'd still need to pay for a day. But (for example) if that was the case, the rest of the day could be used to fit the new CU and not charge for that again....

Thoughts?

Thanks
Phil
 

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Murdoch

Regular EF Member
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25,126
Location
Woking
To get a satisfactory you need to address the C2 items

Google electrical safety best practice guide no 4 and have a read.
 
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Murdoch

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Take the money for the rent but unwilling to spend money to keep the people inside safe.
Irrelevant input. Not helpful
 

Murdoch

Regular EF Member
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Woking
Part of the op was concerned about paying money - completely relevant.

I will not help people like this with electrical advice for free.
All the advice he needs is on post 2, and the only thing I would add is get others to quote.....
 

telectrix

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what i can't see is the "excessive earth leakage will trip RCDs and needs rectifying", yet he's listed all circuit IRs > 100 M.
 
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essex

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The whole EICR is a shambles. But I suspect quality was not on the ops list of priorities when choosing a contractor.
 

DPG

Respected Member
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S Yorkshire
Part of the op was concerned about paying money - completely relevant.

I will not help people like this with electrical advice for free.
He's already had an EICR done, and knows he needs to get the CU changed - seems like he's spending money to keep things safe to me.
 

Loki

Trainee Access
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462
Location
Devon
Just had a quick look at the eicr:

R1 + R2 looks like they've been calculated as Ze is stated 0.35

No r1,r2,rn on ring circuit filled in

Suspect Ze might not have been measured as stated 0.35

No RCD test results filled in yet they've said;

20190313_112901.jpg
 

SparkyChick

Making a banana smoothy for my fave gorilla
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Personally, I think the report is clutching at straws to get extra work.

Why do I say that....

Item 1. The 18th edition does not 'require' cables to be buried more than 50mm.
Item 8. Main earth undersized. If there is evidence of thermal damage, I'd C2, but with no evidence I'd C3 it.
Item 9. Unswitched socket outlet. Show me a regulation unswitched socket outlets contravene.
Item 10. As @telectrix has already pointed out, high earth leakage on circuits where IR is claimed to be >100 Mega ohms.

Just my tuppence worth :)
 
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SparkyChick

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And I'll add, I'd hope to find the IR faults on my own in half a day, so I think the £500 for two people for one day is a little excessive, unless of course it's a huge mansion.
 
OP
naylorpd

naylorpd

Regular EF Member
Messages
53
Location
Baku, Azerbaijan
Take the money for the rent but unwilling to spend money to keep the people inside safe.
Grossly unreasonable comment, which I think others online have recognised. If you don't have anything useful to contribute, perhaps its better to contribute nothing.

If you look at the EICR it says "safety assessment requested by client". I was clear that I'm looking to replace the CU and deal with all the problems associated with it.

So...so far I've employed a qualified electrician to do the EICR, and will do so again to replace the CU including RCDs, re-size the main earth and bonding, put correctly sized tails and install new immersion heater. Go figure how much that means paying to a qualified electrician.

I'm not at all unwilling to spend money on what I need to, but I don't like ****ing it away. So I know I'm perfectly competent to change a ceiling rose and a double socket, but I know I can't do an immersion heater, or a CU.

The sparky that did the EICR is only offering "to see what he can find" for £500. That sounds like a high risk to me, which is why I'm looking for more information.
 

ChrisElectrical88

Forum Mentor
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Norwich
For IR faults or any faults for that matter on a EICR or board change im likely to do or done i quote the hourly rate. You pay the first 2 hours no matter what and then each hour there after. So 3 Hours £80 or whatever. If i dont find the fault in a house in half a day im going to be disappointed in myself. Thats each fault, looking at his report due to filling in 100MOhms on all and no ring main readings, im not sure what the faults are or even how many. Id average it out at a maximum of £100 - 120 a fault.

Obviously once faults are found there will be additional time and materials to rectify.
 
OP
naylorpd

naylorpd

Regular EF Member
Messages
53
Location
Baku, Azerbaijan
The whole EICR is a shambles. But I suspect quality was not on the ops list of priorities when choosing a contractor.
The inspector was chosen by my estate agent, is registered with NAPIT which is a UK government accreditation service so has presumably been vetted, his registration is on the EICR. What else do you think I should have done?

You've completely unjustifiably assumes that I am a cheapskate trying to avoid using a qualified electrician. Nothing is further from the truth.

I don't know about the EICR, that's why I posted it. If there are inconsistencies between the EICR and the proposed work (both as prepared by a competent, qualified and registered electrical inspector), I'm not competent to identify them so I would hope that the good and helpful people on this forum would help.
 
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spinlondon

Forum Mentor
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11,076
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Have you paid for the EICR?
If you have, give it back to them and ask them to write it out properly.
If you haven’t, get someone else to do a proper one.
 

spinlondon

Forum Mentor
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11,076
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Harlow Essex
To start with, the inspector should not be stating stuff should be replaced in the report.
Should not be using the term ‘18th’ instead should use ‘BS7671’, if anything
There’s no reason given as to why there should be RCD protection for faults.
Why are the undersized tails and bonding conductors C3, but the main earth C2?
 

Vortigern

Regular EF Member
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4,766
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England
Personally I am coming across landlords who now have the policy of one electrician does the EICR another the rectifications. While of course I would welcome the work of both the EICR and remedials I can see a conflict of interests there and agree it is a fair policy. It encourages when a problem is noted, that it is indeed a problem not a pitch for un-needed work. Not that that is my practice I hasten to add it just makes me more careful.
Fault finding is a notoriously difficult area and I can sense your trepidation in handing over what may appear to be a blank cheque. However I would tend to examine the possible faults with a view to rewiring if it is more cost effective under the advice of the person ordering the work. After all, I could probably rewire cheaper than the cost of a couple of days fault finding.
The good thing about someone else coming in to do the remedials is that you get a double check and ensure a mistake was not made in doing the IR tests and they left something plugged in or did not bypass a neon or forgot about the USB sockets things like that. Second opinion is good.
 
OP
naylorpd

naylorpd

Regular EF Member
Messages
53
Location
Baku, Azerbaijan
left something plugged in or did not bypass a neon or forgot about the USB sockets things like that. Second opinion is good.
Hmmm, I recently fitted USB sockets on upstairs and downstairs rings. I don't recall any neons though, but it's possible.

What should you do with USB sockets when doing leakage and IR tests? Disconnect them?

Thanks for advice and understanding.
 

SparkyChick

Making a banana smoothy for my fave gorilla
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Hmmm, I recently fitted USB sockets on upstairs and downstairs rings. I don't recall any neons though, but it's possible.

What should you do with USB sockets when doing leakage and IR tests? Disconnect them?

Thanks for advice and understanding.
It depends on what the manufacturers recommend. Some sockets can be left in place but they will adversely affect insulation resistance test results (usually just the L-N tests).

We don't perform leakage tests in the normal course of carrying out an EICR, however if we get low IR results, it's not unusual to perform a direct leakage test by using an earth leakage clamp meter on the meter tails.

If there were things in circuit that adversely affected the IR results, one would expect to see a suitably low result in the schedule of test results (by suitably low I mean less than 1 Mega ohm), but the test results are all claiming >100 Mega ohms so either the statement about excessive leakage is bogus or the test results are incorrect, they can't both be true (IMHO at least).

The immersion heater issue, as has already been said it's possible this is a non-issue because it may actually have a cut out, it's just not accessible with the terminal cover on.

Given your location... are you in the country at the moment? I'd like to see why the hall ceiling rose needs replacing :)
 

Vortigern

Regular EF Member
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4,766
Location
England
I bypass the socket with wagos. It does occur to me that while you say you are competent to change a ceiling rose etc. I would tend to question that in the sense that any work you do may invalidate certified work. If you did work and made a mistake you have no defence at law and it may invalidate any insurance. I only flag that to you as sage advice I am sure you can actually do the changes you mentioned as a practical matter but not so much in a legal/regulatory manner as a landlord.
 
OP
naylorpd

naylorpd

Regular EF Member
Messages
53
Location
Baku, Azerbaijan
Given your location... are you in the country at the moment? I'd like to see why the hall ceiling rose needs replacing :)
I'm also interested in that - I decorated the house top to bottom last year and replaced a few ceiling roses, not sure about the hall though.

No, I'm in Azerbaijan at the moment. But I'll have a look when I'm back in the UK.
 

spinlondon

Forum Mentor
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11,076
Location
Harlow Essex
I’m a little suspicious of the high earth leakage.
IR results are >100 Mohms, which would suggest there is no earth leakage.
When conducting IR and Zs tests on installations with USB sockets, precautions should be taken. Simplest would be to disconnect them.
A recent test of a number of USB sockets conducted by Electrical Safety First showed problems with high earth leakage on USB sockets from 3 manufactures.
Investigation into UK socket-outlets incorporating USB charging points | Electrical Safety First - https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/professional-resources/technical-e-news/investigation-into-uk-socket-outlets-incorporating-usb-charging-points/
I’m also sceptical that the BS 3871 MCBs are type B.
I suspect they are in fact type 2.
 

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