AFDDs are a massive fraud

[Bobster]

Sisyphus - are you confusing AFDD devices with SPDs?

Maybe, but the test for arcs they use in a lab is several KV. I have in the past read a document, possibly the one he is referring to.

 

[DPG]

Maybe, but the test for arcs they use in a lab is several KV. I have in the past read a document, possibly the one he is referring to.

Probably so as part of the testing yes. But his post seemed to be intimating that because such high surges are rare on household power supplies then AFDDs aren't needed.

 

[Devonchris]

On the one hand, you say the poster has raised interesting points, on the other, you want to know more about the poster before you assign any credibility to the interesting points?

Yes, and why not?

If Theresa May announced that she believed all electricians pay should increase by 100%, and that she had a bill on the issue for parliament, and that she was confident of getting the required votes, then I would find that interesting, but not very credible.

On the other hand that Prof Brian Cox fellow on telly I find very credible, but I have not the slightest interest in what he drones on about.

Now we come to Cookie. Do I believe him? I believe he is sincere in what he is saying but misguided and wrong. Why? Chiefly because his credibility score is nil.

 

[DPG]

I'm with Devonchris on this one. Although I do like some of the Brian Cox stuff.

 

[Devonchris]

I'm with Devonchris on this one. Although I do like some of the Brian Cox stuff.

I think I'm probably missing out there, and I have tried. But as someone somewhere once said, you can take a ----- to culture but you can't make them think.

 

[DPG]

Must admit I don't understand a lot of his subject matter, but interesting nonetheless.

------ - yep another interesting subject.

 

[Cookie]

MOST OF ww1 AND 1/2 OF ww2 ,

Weren't most here born after 1947?

 

[DPG]

1847 for Tel.

 

[Pete999]

Weren't most here born after 1947?

1847 for Tel.

What has 1947 got to do with this?

 

[Cookie]

then fix the lack of loop impedance testing. cure the disease, not the symptoms.

Exactly. Code should not mandate what technology cures the disease.

Assuming that a short circuit at 120 volts being cleared thermally instead of magnetically is a fire risk to begin with. UL was only able to prove that with flammable tape and neon gas transformers...

 

[marconi]

A propos WW1 and WW2 remarks: Way off topic but I think we need to remember which nation now provides and pays for (- the US taxpayer like Cookie) the extraordinary guarantee to NATO, especially since the other nations have and do not properly resource their armed forces and the UK does not too. Don't reply that we meet 2% minimum - George Osborne included among other things armed forces pensions to achieve that disambulation.

See:

MoD using ‘creative accounting’ to meet Nato defence spending targets

Commons Defence Committee says including things like war pensions and intelligence-gathering was the only way the Government was able to meet its pledge to abide by 2% of GDP target announced in last year's summer Budget

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Cookie]

There was I recalling that you reckoned RCDs and CBs detected Arc faults.

According to UL they do- so why does the UK see the need to replicate the same thing at a higher cost with a less reliable hit or miss technology?

 

[marconi]

As a nudge - perhaps Westward10, Davesparks, Lucien Nunes, Wilko, Ruston might stir themselves and contribute.

 

[Pete999]

As a nudge - perhaps Westward10, Davesparks, Lucien Nunes, Wilko, Ruston might stir themselves and contribute.

Give it a bit longer Marconi, just not home yet from a busy day, may be

 

[Cookie]

Hi cookie

Sorry for diverting your thread a little.

Its ok and fine in moderation which you have adhered to

You have raised some interesting points, and I, for one, would be interested to know why we Have welcomed them with open arms and by who, and was the science behind it known to them. Or did they simply believe the manufactures?

Well, if I may, I think part of the reason can be seen right here.

The other part being that with billions you can convince anyone to believe anything especially when the are innocent and benevolent because its hard to imagine that someone else has ideas outside of protecting life and property.


If we were to keep it simple part of it is skewed science, part ignorance, part persuasion.

But first off, it would help to know why you have taken up this cause, what your involvement is, and what your experience is to enable you to make these claims. Whilst ever you avoid these matters, then your credibility here is no better than mine. So come on, open up a bit so we know you are genuine.

[/QUOTE]


Again, right here we see the psychology of why the world is what it is- standing out in the broad for all to see. The evidence is mostly self explanatory, on black and white, yet you look for dubiousness in me and not the documents presented.


I can and have taken up many causes over a broad spectrum. Ask me why hospitals are jerking with parallel switch-gear and I can fire up another thread. As of this moment I'm trying to find out why West 49th st substation completely shut down despite over a dozen systems in place specifically designed to prevent it. Your double bus single breaker outperforms breaker-and-a-half and ring bus despite all intention saying otherwise.


I see the truth. I see where people are being lead. Not letting others know of it would be worse in my mind- the mark of a psychopath.

 

[Devonchris]

A propos WW1 and WW2 remarks: Way off topic but I think we need to remember which nation now provides and pays for (- the US taxpayer like Cookie) the extraordinary guarantee to NATO, especially since the other nations have and do not properly resource their armed forces and the UK does not too. Don't reply that we meet 2% minimum - George Osborne included among other things armed forces pensions to achieve that disambulation.

See:

MoD using ‘creative accounting’ to meet Nato defence spending targets

Commons Defence Committee says including things like war pensions and intelligence-gathering was the only way the Government was able to meet its pledge to abide by 2% of GDP target announced in last year's summer Budget

www.independent.co.uk

on the face of it, I agree with your comments. But you're assuming he's American and a tax payer. Or do you know something we don't?

 

[Shoei]

TL.DR version. AFDDs are a crap solution to a problem we don't have, use an RFC and forget about them.

In more detail..

From IEC62606-2103
"Residual Current Devices (RCDs) are recognised as efficient to reduce the risk of fire by detection of leakage current and arcing to ground as a consequence of tracking currents within an electrical installation. However, RCDs as fuses or circuit-breakers are not able to reduce the risk of electrical fire due to series or parallel arcing between live conductors.

During a series arc fault, there is no leakage to ground therefore RCDs cannot detect such a fault. Moreover, the impedance of the series arc fault reduces the load current, which will keep the current below the tripping threshold of the circuit-breaker and the fuse. In the case of a parallel arc between phase and neutral conductor, the current is only limited by the impedance of the installation. In the worst cases of sporadic arcs, the conventional circuit breakers were not designed for that purpose."

And the test procedure from IEC62606-2013..

"The insulation across both wires is to be slit 50 mm (or 2 inches) from one end to a depth to expose the conductors without severing any strands.
d) The slit in the insulation is to be wrapped with a double layer of electrical grade black PVC tape and overwrapped with a double layer of fiberglass tape.
e) The conductors are to be stripped at the end farthest from the slit approximately 12 mm (or 0,5 in) for connection to the test circuits. The cable specimen shall be then conditioned to create a carbonized conductive path across insulation between the two cable conductors:
f) The cable specimen is to be connected to a circuit providing 30 mA short circuit current and an open circuit voltage of at least 7 kV. The circuit is to be energized for approximately 10 s or until the smoking stops.
g) The cable specimen is to be connected to a circuit providing 300 mA short circuit at a voltage of at least 2 kV or sufficient to cause the current to flow. The circuit is to be energized for approximately one minute or until the smoking stops."

AFDDs are an attempt to reduce fires in timber buildings using relatively high-current radials, in North America where poor termination and/or breaks in conductors start fires. In the UK RFC's are inherently tolerant of single faults, a feature that makes them incompatible with AFDDs. Given the choice between an RFC and an AFDD it has to be the RFC, it's a cheaper and much more reliable way to reduce the risk of fire from a broken conductor.

 

[Devonchris]

And I'm assuming he's male. But now we all know, he's just an internet warrior.

 

[Pete999]

on the face of it, I agree with your comments. But you're assuming he's American and a tax payer. Or do you know something we don't?

Well looking at Cookie's avatar, he is an AMERICAN one of the World's Police Force, the special relationship and all that goes with it,

 

[marconi]

on the face of it, I agree with your comments. But you're assuming he's American and a tax payer. Or do you know something we don't?

Yes I do and no I do not. I am disappointed he has not described his background and said where he lives. I tend to side with him on his views on the state of the art of current AFDDs.