AFDDs are a massive fraud

[Pete999]

Yes I do and no I do not. I am disappointed he has not described his background and said where he lives.

A Troll, may be?????? only asking not accusing

 

[Devonchris]

Us oldies are so cynical its unbelievable.

 

[Cookie]

TL.DR version. AFDDs are a crap solution to a problem we don't have, use an RFC and forget about them.

In more detail..

From IEC62606-2103
"Residual Current Devices (RCDs) are recognised as efficient to reduce the risk of fire by detection of leakage current and arcing to ground as a consequence of tracking currents within an electrical installation. However, RCDs as fuses or circuit-breakers are not able to reduce the risk of electrical fire due to series or parallel arcing between live conductors.

During a series arc fault, there is no leakage to ground therefore RCDs cannot detect such a fault. Moreover, the impedance of the series arc fault reduces the load current, which will keep the current below the tripping threshold of the circuit-breaker and the fuse. In the case of a parallel arc between phase and neutral conductor, the current is only limited by the impedance of the installation. In the worst cases of sporadic arcs, the conventional circuit breakers were not designed for that purpose."

And the test procedure from IEC62606-2013..

"The insulation across both wires is to be slit 50 mm (or 2 inches) from one end to a depth to expose the conductors without severing any strands.
d) The slit in the insulation is to be wrapped with a double layer of electrical grade black PVC tape and overwrapped with a double layer of fiberglass tape.
e) The conductors are to be stripped at the end farthest from the slit approximately 12 mm (or 0,5 in) for connection to the test circuits. The cable specimen shall be then conditioned to create a carbonized conductive path across insulation between the two cable conductors:
f) The cable specimen is to be connected to a circuit providing 30 mA short circuit current and an open circuit voltage of at least 7 kV. The circuit is to be energized for approximately 10 s or until the smoking stops.
g) The cable specimen is to be connected to a circuit providing 300 mA short circuit at a voltage of at least 2 kV or sufficient to cause the current to flow. The circuit is to be energized for approximately one minute or until the smoking stops."

AFDDs are an attempt to reduce fires in timber buildings using relatively high-current radials, in North America where poor termination and/or breaks in conductors start fires. In the UK RFC's are inherently tolerant of single faults, a feature that makes them incompatible with AFDDs. Given the choice between an RFC and an AFDD it has to be the RFC, it's a cheaper and much more reliable way to reduce the risk of fire from a broken conductor.

You do know IEC62606 is a carbon copy of UL1699?

UL is in the IEC and so Eaton, I will find you the link.

The over voltage theory came about because they could not get in wall romex to arc unless it was carbonized by applying 8-15kv across it. Supposedly in the real world this would come from lightning strikes and multi kv surges jumping the gap in damaged insulation from over driven staples. This would eventually carbonize the path where 120 volts could arc across in high current and ignite the wood.

Here is that theory in depth:

https://legacy-uploads.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/40/2015/02/Investigation_of_Damage_and_Degradation_of_NM_Cables.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/288833845_Fires_Originating_in_Branch-Circuit_NM_Cables_due_to_Installation_Damage

Only two problems:

1) multi kv voltage spikes happening monthly would destroy any AFCI breaker and the home owners would notice when their electronics and MOVs become toasted regularly.

2) Never was pyrophoric carbonization ever considered or investigated as being a possible cause behind smoldering studs. Arcing was assumed immediately despite lab testing saying its not likely given just how many surges romex would have to take.

 

[Cookie]

Well looking at Cookie's avatar, he is an AMERICAN one of the World's Police Force, the special relationship and all that goes with it,

Had I known, I would have used an anonymous proxy. But that could get me banned. I've long learned international forums have a bit of an interest with what country a person resides in.

With that said I not only do not support what the US does, I DESPISE it.


But it should not matter in this conversation. Its not about politics but AFDDs. And if anything the fact they come from a country that is renowned for profit over all else should speak for itself.

 

[Cookie]

And I'm assuming he's male. But now we all know, he's just an internet warrior.

If you want BS7671 to balloon to 3,500 pages and make any job cost so much muppets take over your respectable job turning the UK into a 3rd wold country of shocking knobs and hobs... great for you. But I don't think everyone would want that. Certainly not me.

 

[Cookie]

A Troll, may be?????? only asking not accusing

And what would a background do? If I worked for a massive multi national company or code making body do you seriously believe I would hold these views? Posting them for all to see? They don't look for people who see the truth, they look for useful idiots and those who can progress the companies set goals both written and unwritten to which there are many btw.

 

[DPG]

I still don't see why you won't share your background. It's the first time I've ever seen this on a forum. You still haven't given a proper reason as far as I can see.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I still don't see why you won't share your background. It's the first time I've ever seen this on a forum. You still haven't given a proper reason as far as I can see.

I’ve only shared dribs and drabs of mine.

 

[DPG]

I’ve only shared dribs and drabs of mine.

Me too, but it seems a bit deliberate in this case. And when you start making the sort of accusations he is making then it would help. In my opinion anyway.

 

[Cookie]

I still don't see why you won't share your background. It's the first time I've ever seen this on a forum. You still haven't given a proper reason as far as I can see.

Clearly you've never been on a US forum, because AFCI angst literally goes on for 5 dozen pages. Search AFCIs on Mike Holt's forum as an example.

 

[DPG]

Clearly you've never been on a US forum, because AFCI angst literally goes on for 5 dozen pages. Search "Mike Holt AFCIs"

You're just avoiding the issue again.

I never mentioned how long threads go for.

 

[Cookie]

Me too, but it seems a bit deliberate in this case. And when you start making the sort of accusations he is making then it would help. In my opinion anyway.

What type of background would you like me to have? What would have you believe me?

 

[DPG]

What type of background would you like me to have? What would have you believe me?

I give up. I was interested in this thread but its going nowhere for me.

 

[Cookie]

You're just avoiding the issue again.

I never mentioned how long threads go for.

Go and a US forum and you will see plenty of not sharing credentials and people hold AFDD opinions far more extreme then mine.

 

[DPG]

Go and a US forum and you will see plenty of not sharing credentials and people hold AFDD opinions far more extreme then mine.

Defensive again.

 

[Cookie]

I give up. I was interested in this thread but its going nowhere for me.

Because its not about credentials. Its about the facts I've posted.

 

[Wilko]

Go and a US forum and you will see plenty of not sharing credentials and people hold AFDD opinions far more extreme then mine.

Hi - opinions are like ears, everyone’s got one or two. It’s just human nature to have more respect for statements if there is some background knowledge of the person making them. If you don’t feel you can share, that’s fine .
I’m a big believer in proper design, installation and testing. I might be wrong, but I think this would remove the need for an AFDD, at least in UK (?).

 

[Cookie]

Hi - opinions are like ears, everyone’s got one or two. It’s just human nature to have more respect for statements if there is some background knowledge of the person making them. If you don’t feel you can share, that’s fine .
I’m a big believer in proper design, installation and testing. I might be wrong, but I think this would remove the need for an AFDD, at least in UK (?).

But some opinions are based on fact others are based on fiction. I don't understand how my links (openly saying your breakers detect arcing) is not supporting evidence in of itself. I don't care who the messenger is, but rather what is he trying to say and what evidence he has.

 

[Wilko]

But some opinions are based on fact others are based on fiction. I don't understand how my links (openly saying your breakers detect arcing) is not supporting evidence in of itself. I don't care who the messenger is, but rather what is he trying to say and what evidence he has.

Hi - yes, I agree, don’t shoot the messenger .
I am sorry to say that I’ve not looked at your links yet.

 

[Sisyphus]

I'm a Yank spark, the reason I (and Cookie) are here is because we've been witness to an entire history of fraud in the US that is now spreading itself globally.

If you'd like more specifics, we can easily bore you for pages.

But the thing is, we are here because we need your help

Pursuant to this, you folks have a history of RCD's , Earth loop resistance , as well as other relevant theory.

Something that is far less a consideration in the states

This is a big reason why we've been duped

~S~