Am I a mate or an improved? Opinions..

[JonesyWales]

Hello. I'm a long time reader

Looking for opinions on my status at the moment and my future options.

I am 25 years old
And have completed two years in college city and guilds

I started work on site as a mate.
Self employed.

I'm on £10ph.. but paying 30% tax as still bloody waiting on UTR.

Ive been on site in a different trade for a few years so not new to site work itself.

My main issue is I'm being paid the same as mates who have just started and have zero electrical qualifications or experience.
But whereas they have no tools even etc and no clue on what's what and why we do it.. all they are tasked with is lugging gear around, passing stuff up
General labouring etc.

I'm marking out, using drawings,
Drilling out for cable routing
Then pulling everything in..
Everything from SWA for the supplies
To data and the electrical circuits
Installing boxes etc
This includes communal areas
And plant rooms

complete second fixing ( when houses are ready )
Able to understand how to find switch cables bla bla
Ensuring I have the correct cable and gear. Have my own tools etc.

So in a nutshell I'm doing the exact same as the sparks
But getting paid barely half the money
( These sparks do not hold gold cards, other than one , and only one can test )

So am I an improver? Or still a mate?

I want to improve skill wise and by no means think I know even a small amount that time served sparks do
But I have some papers
And intended to get my gold card
And my inspection and testing.

Finally there is an improver on site
Who earns more than me
Despite having zero electrical qualifications and only a few months site experience.

Colleagues have said if I ask for more money I will be tasked with more responsibility
But in all honesty I'm.not sure what they can ask for that I don't already do..

Sorry for the rant
Thanks

 

[Pete999]

Hello. I'm a long time reader

Looking for opinions on my status at the moment and my future options.

I am 25 years old
And have completed two years in college city and guilds

I started work on site as a mate.
Self employed.

I'm on £10ph.. but paying 30% tax as still bloody waiting on UTR.

Ive been on site in a different trade for a few years so not new to site work itself.

My main issue is I'm being paid the same as mates who have just started and have zero electrical qualifications or experience.
But whereas they have no tools even etc and no clue on what's what and why we do it.. all they are tasked with is lugging gear around, passing stuff up
General labouring etc.

I'm marking out, using drawings,
Drilling out for cable routing
Then pulling everything in..
Everything from SWA for the supplies
To data and the electrical circuits
Installing boxes etc
This includes communal areas
And plant rooms

complete second fixing ( when houses are ready )
Able to understand how to find switch cables bla bla
Ensuring I have the correct cable and gear. Have my own tools etc.

So in a nutshell I'm doing the exact same as the sparks
But getting paid barely half the money
( These sparks do not hold gold cards, other than one , and only one can test )

So am I an improver? Or still a mate?

I want to improve skill wise and by no means think I know even a small amount that time served sparks do
But I have some papers
And intended to get my gold card
And my inspection and testing.

Finally there is an improver on site
Who earns more than me
Despite having zero electrical qualifications and only a few months site experience.

Colleagues have said if I ask for more money I will be tasked with more responsibility
But in all honesty I'm.not sure what they can ask for that I don't already do..

Sorry for the rant
Thanks

Hello. I'm a long time reader

Looking for opinions on my status at the moment and my future options.

I am 25 years old
And have completed two years in college city and guilds

I started work on site as a mate.
Self employed.

I'm on £10ph.. but paying 30% tax as still bloody waiting on UTR.

Ive been on site in a different trade for a few years so not new to site work itself.

My main issue is I'm being paid the same as mates who have just started and have zero electrical qualifications or experience.
But whereas they have no tools even etc and no clue on what's what and why we do it.. all they are tasked with is lugging gear around, passing stuff up
General labouring etc.

I'm marking out, using drawings,
Drilling out for cable routing
Then pulling everything in..
Everything from SWA for the supplies
To data and the electrical circuits
Installing boxes etc
This includes communal areas
And plant rooms

complete second fixing ( when houses are ready )
Able to understand how to find switch cables bla bla
Ensuring I have the correct cable and gear. Have my own tools etc.

So in a nutshell I'm doing the exact same as the sparks
But getting paid barely half the money
( These sparks do not hold gold cards, other than one , and only one can test )

So am I an improver? Or still a mate?

I want to improve skill wise and by no means think I know even a small amount that time served sparks do
But I have some papers
And intended to get my gold card
And my inspection and testing.

Finally there is an improver on site
Who earns more than me
Despite having zero electrical qualifications and only a few months site experience.

Colleagues have said if I ask for more money I will be tasked with more responsibility
But in all honesty I'm.not sure what they can ask for that I don't already do..

Sorry for the rant
Thanks

With no electrical qualifications Jonesy, I think you options are limited, but you are being taken for a ride by your employer, don't know what the answer is in your case.

 

[Leesparkykent]

what was the job title when you applied for the job?

 

[DavidSpark]

It sounds to me like you're already doing a lot of the work. Perhaps take a look at the training providers at the side of the site and get your NVQ 3 done!

It seems like it may be up to you to take your next steps in your career, certainly sounds like you're already doing most of the portfolio work.

Best of luck

 

[JonesyWales]

It was through a friend of a friend sort of thing. No interview no job title.

But now I'm sub contract to the company direct

 

[Pete999]

It was through a friend of a friend sort of thing. No interview no job title.

But now I'm sub contract to the company direct

Sorry to be so blunt Jonesy, don't know what your personal conditions are but as David has mentioned some training may help you get qualified, but if you continue to work for this company they would be foolish to stop employing you, that's to say it's right, but look at it from their point of view.

 

[JonesyWales]

No it's fine , I fully intend to work my way up and train to be a full blown spark.

I love working , don't get me wrong
I appreciate the fact I'm on site hands on learning what I otherwise wouldn't know.

I looked into getting my AM2
but what I need to do is a huge amount of research.
I passed my college course both theory and practical with flying colours
( distinction )
Through staying up all night with my head in books.

And happy to put the work in to gain what I need.
I have no idea where to start or what the AM2 requires..
Also
I've heard terrifying tales about the inspection and testing exam

 

[DavidSpark]

There are some guides for the AM2 in the resource section of the website, you'll find the tab at the top! Most colleges also run preparation days which covers what comes up, but I couldn't tell you if they are actually worth while.
As far as I am aware it currently entails:

• Section A1 - Risk assessment and safe isolation - Time to complete: 1 hour
• Section A - Composite installation - Time to complete: 8 h 30 min
• Section B - Inspection, Testing and Certification - Time to complete: 3 h 30 min
• Section C - Fault Diagnosis - Time to complete: 2 hours
• Section D - On-line exam - Time to complete: 1 hour

and Section A being the biggest comprises of:

• Protective devices in a TP&N distribution board
• A two-way and intermediate lighting circuit in a PVC/PVC multi-core cable
• A BS 1363 13A socket outlet ring circuit in a PVC single core cables
• A carbon monoxide detector safety service circuit in a FP200 type cable
• Data outlets circuit in a Cat 5 cable
• A BS EN 60309 16A socket outlet in a XLPE SWA cable
• Protective equipotential bonding to gas and water services
• A 3-phase direct on line motor/starter circuit in a SY cable
• An S Plan central heating and hot water system with a solar thermal sustainable energy element utilising heat resistant flexible cable and PVC single core cables

As far as inspection and testing goes, its all a logical sequence and once you know it, you know it. If you understand why you do the testing and what it is for it make it easier to learn. There are lots of resources online for inspection and testing that have been made by more experienced people than myself, a quick google will head you in the right direction.

 

[hightower]

With no electrical qualifications Jonesy, I think you options are limited

He has qualifications Pete, he's spent two years at college so I'd guess he's got 2365 L3.

 

[JonesyWales]

I'm level 2 2365 hightower

I don't actually know what that means for me and work though.
Would I have my 17th through that?
As my contracts manager asked if I had my 17th and I didn't know as I have still not received my certificates.
So had to say I didn't know , but if I do I can obviously then advise him of such.

 

[hightower]

No mate, your 17th is a separate qualification that'll cost you anywhere in the region of £300-£600. Definitely a qualification you'll need under your belt sooner or later, however, I'd suggest holding off on it until at least the 18th is out next year, and would probably go one further and suggest getting your level 3 2365 under your belt first.

I think with your current qualifications, you'd technically be classed as a mate/improver - in my mind they are no different, just different names for the same role. However, some will argue that a mate is a lower level to an improver.

That said though, there's some clever sods working out there with hardly no qualifications, and there's some not so clued up guys that have the whole shebang to their name. Many people will say you aren't a spark without the 2357 (or equivalent), but I'm not sure I agree with that.

 

[paul291277]

Go back to college, Level 3 2365 next (roughly £1500 for 1yr), then its probably going to be 18th Edidition once you have done that (roughly £400 for 10 wks) at night school. You will gain credibility by obtaining these but if you're as good as you claim, you're easily worth double what you are getting!

 

[paul291277]

Sorry Hightower, bypassed your post and almost repeated it verbatim before going back over the thread

 

[suffolkspark]

pretty sure your still going to need to do L3 C&G technical certificate, then AM2 or NVQ3, AND then the 17th/18th as yet! long old road!

 

[JonesyWales]

Yikes a lot to do. And the £ signs are racking up.

It's flipping hard when trying to keep a house and children going too haha

I'll have to look into my 2365 L3

first port of call there will be an email to my college tutor , see if there's a night class . As I definitely won't be able to not work.

I appreciate every bit of guidance and help
Many thanks all.

 

[Risteard]

If you do the technical cert under the 17th Edition then you won't need a separate 17th Edition qualification. It's only really important where you were trained under a previous Edition.

 

[suffolkspark]

If you do the technical cert under the 17th Edition then you won't need a separate 17th Edition qualification. It's only really important where you were trained under a previous Edition.

true that, my bad, but I forgot to add C&G 2391 or EAL equiv if that's the chosen path eventually

 

[haptism]

If I was in your position now (and assuming you have enough variety of work) then sign up with any provider for your NVQ3 and get your portfollio going (with the aim of completing it !).
I was in a similar position years ago and never finished the NVQ3, so im not really considered anything other than a mate in the eyes of plenty. I believe the official grade of an "improver" is given to someone in the process of completing the NVQ3.

 

[Rpa07]

And with all the involved work you are doing I do hope that you've had the nouse! to be getting evidence in the form of photographs and even video and written diary types that make up 90% of the NVQ portfolio that will get you that Gold card. If you are not collating it then read up about it on this forum and on the C+G website or ask a tutor and get gathering because when the time comes to put the portfolio together it'll all be there for you to use and believe anyone who is building a portfolio - it doesn't get done quickly as it builds with experience.
All the best.
My answer - you're an improver. Go ask for more money £13 or so approx before CIS and sort out that emergency TaX rate.

 

[dmxtothemax]

If you think that you deserve more pay because you may do more than the average helper, then by all means approach your boss and ask for it ?
But you are in essence still a helper, maybe a bit better than most, but still a helper. Or as we call them here in Australia "Trades Assistant". you cannot really compare yourself with an electrician, as they carry Full legal liability for the work they do.
Do you ?

 

[hightower]

If you do the technical cert under the 17th Edition then you won't need a separate 17th Edition qualification. It's only really important where you were trained under a previous Edition.

That's not true. 17th and tech cert are two very different courses, having a tech cert doesn't negate the need for the 17th

 

[casperLennon]

Get intouch with xs training for your nvq3. They do it through a video link on your phone so you don't have to stop working.

 

[Risteard]

If you do the technical cert under the 17th Edition then you won't need a separate 17th Edition qualification. It's only really important where you were trained under a previous Edition.

That's not true. 17th and tech cert are two very different courses, having a tech cert doesn't negate the need for the 17th

It does. My JIB card listed "16th Edition" despite me never doing the specific course for it because my Apprenticeship was under the Sixteenth Edition.

 

[JonesyWales]

I've had a look at xs..

Is the right one I'm looking for the NVQ3
with the test booked by them? £1900?

If so I'll go for that. And following that look to do my 2391.

I'll chat with the director of the form I sub to. Explain what I'm doing and that I would like a rise to £12.50ph as I feel I am an improver , and will , asap, have a gold card.

I have been completely alone all day , starting an apartment from scratch, sadly I won't be alone throughout.
I would like to be thrown in at the deep end and given my own apartment from start to finish , just to prove my ability.

I do everything sparks do, but as I'm not alone , my own work isn't 'recognised'

Thanks all again,
I feel if I chat to colleagues, they try to dissuade Me from progressing for whatever reason.
So the forum is a huge help.

 

[hightower]

If you do the technical cert under the 17th Edition then you won't need a separate 17th Edition qualification. It's only really important where you were trained under a previous Edition.

It does. My JIB card listed "16th Edition" despite me never doing the specific course for it because my Apprenticeship was under the Sixteenth Edition.

An apprenticeship and the tech cert are not the same though are they...

 

[casperLennon]

Yeah that's the one. Pay monthly aswell which is good if ya not on the best money. I have kids and a house and the rest of it, difficult to get it all done but keep going

 

[Dave OCD]

and Section A being the biggest comprises of:

• Protective devices in a TP&N distribution board
• A two-way and intermediate lighting circuit in a PVC/PVC multi-core cable
• A BS 1363 13A socket outlet ring circuit in a PVC single core cables
• A carbon monoxide detector safety service circuit in a FP200 type cable
• Data outlets circuit in a Cat 5 cable
• A BS EN 60309 16A socket outlet in a XLPE SWA cable
• Protective equipotential bonding to gas and water services
• A 3-phase direct on line motor/starter circuit in a SY cable
• An S Plan central heating and hot water system with a solar thermal sustainable energy element utilising heat resistant flexible cable and PVC single core cables

Only 8 and a half hours to do that lot ? I'm sure I'd fail .

 

[Pete999]

and Section A being the biggest comprises of:

• Protective devices in a TP&N distribution board
• A two-way and intermediate lighting circuit in a PVC/PVC multi-core cable
• A BS 1363 13A socket outlet ring circuit in a PVC single core cables
• A carbon monoxide detector safety service circuit in a FP200 type cable
• Data outlets circuit in a Cat 5 cable
• A BS EN 60309 16A socket outlet in a XLPE SWA cable
• Protective equipotential bonding to gas and water services
• A 3-phase direct on line motor/starter circuit in a SY cable
• An S Plan central heating and hot water system with a solar thermal sustainable energy element utilising heat resistant flexible cable and PVC single core cables

Only 8 and a half hours to do that lot ? I'm sure I'd fail .

What can I say? with statements like that one you have failed before you have started

 

[paul291277]

Jonesy, if you are over 24, look up 24+ advanced learner loans from gov.uk, theres no credit check and you only start paying it off after you start earning over a certain ammount (£21k methinks). Did my 2365 that way and have been told by a few people that noone pays them back anyway, will find out on my next tax return I suppose.

Was really easy to apply and they stumped up £1450 for my course

 

[Dave OCD]

What can I say? with statements like that one you have failed before you have started

Could you do all that in that time Pete ? I don't need to having been qualified for 32 years but it seems a heck of a lot to get through !

 

[Pete999]

Could you do all that in that time Pete ? I don't need to having been qualified for 32 years but it seems a heck of a lot to get through !

Not having to go through all that Dave I couldn't say, is this practical or theoretical? my thoughts were if you go in with that attitude you would probably failed before you started, if you are having to take this sort of test then a positive attitude is a requirement, there was no slur intended.

 

[Dave OCD]

No offence taken whatsoever Pete, as I understand it that's the practical , just read through it- I'd say 2 days to do that lot properly.

 

[Pete999]

Could you do all that in that time Pete ? I don't need to having been qualified for 32 years but it seems a heck of a lot to get through !

Not having to go through all that Dave I couldn't say, is this practical or theoretical? my thoughts were if you go in with that attitude you would probably failed before you started, if you are having to take this sort of test then a positive attitude is a requirement, there was no slur intended. Mind you I have to admit I wouldn't have a clue with the S plan, having no experience, but as I said is this a practical test?

 

[JonesyWales]

Yeah it's practical. It's almost identical to the practical I completed for my 2365.

We were allocated 10hours. And by god that was tough enough.

I'd struggle to do the AM2 in 8.5
I've not so much as seen inside a three phase board let alone connected them up.

Same with heating systems. Though I know I can pick that up easy enough.

Never had to use FP or SY as of yet but again. Not too worried.

It's the three phase motor that scares me lol.

It's a challenge , though I passed college with distinctions , so I'll push myself like hell to get the AM2 as good as possible.

 

[uksrevivor]

Hi Jonesy
You will have to have the level 3 2365 city and guilds qualification before you can apply for your NVQ portfolio and AM2 assesment.
You will need photographic evidence of you working in industrial/commercial and domestic electrics and an assessor will need to attend your chosen site to observe and asses you on the job in all 3 fields if im right. That will then be your NVQ portfolio completed. The 17th wiring regs do not come as part of the level 3 and neither does the inspection and testing they only form part of the modules in the level 3 diploma.
You sound like you have a positive attitude towards learning so you should do well m8 and there is no shame in staying up late to study or understand the theory I did it myself.
Hope this helps a bit, the above is what i was told by my instructors in college.
Good luck its worth it in the end

 

[Pete999]

No offence taken whatsoever Pete, as I understand it that's the practical , just read through it- I'd say 2 days to do that lot properly.

If that's the case, then yes Dave it is a tall order.

 

[KJF]

Yeah it's practical. It's almost identical to the practical I completed for my 2365.

We were allocated 10hours. And by god that was tough enough.

I'd struggle to do the AM2 in 8.5
I've not so much as seen inside a three phase board let alone connected them up.

Same with heating systems. Though I know I can pick that up easy enough.

Never had to use FP or SY as of yet but again. Not too worried.

It's the three phase motor that scares me lol.

It's a challenge , though I passed college with distinctions , so I'll push myself like hell to get the AM2 as good as possible.

As far as I'm aware the new AM2 has all of the containment systems and back boxes in place, which was a time consuming job in the AM1 you would have completed on your level 2.