What am I allowed to do in Scotland?

[RuraidhBoy]

I'm looking to remove the shaver socket in our bathroom because it's never been used, but apparently this might be "notifiable" or "certifiable" under updated regs as it's "altering" a circuit in the bathroom.

A google led me to Part P but this doesn't apply in Scotland. So...searching and trying to navigate the Scottish building regs is a total mess, going round in circles. It's like someone has taken Part P and re-written it into 80 pages. I'm reading stuff about competent person is no longer applicable and now has to be done by a "qualified" person but they don't specify what qualified actually means. I've been out of the industry for about 30 years but I have a degree is in EEE. I'm sure that I'm competent enough to remove the socket and make it safe - but am I qualified?

Surely I don't need to pay a spark to do this and certify it? Can anyone clarify?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Why bother removing it?

 

[littlespark]

If it was faulty, you could replace it under repair and maintenance without a certificate…. So disconnecting it completely shouldn’t need it.

There are many DIY projects going on across the country where a certificate is never going to be produced for the work done….. and in your case, how is anybody ever going to know.

If it’s a newish house, it could simply be fed from the nearest switch… just disconnect the live and neutral from there.

 

[Jock from the north]

I'm looking to remove the shaver socket in our bathroom because it's never been used, but apparently this might be "notifiable" or "certifiable" under updated regs as it's "altering" a circuit in the bathroom.

A google led me to Part P but this doesn't apply in Scotland. So...searching and trying to navigate the Scottish building regs is a total mess, going round in circles. It's like someone has taken Part P and re-written it into 80 pages. I'm reading stuff about competent person is no longer applicable and now has to be done by a "qualified" person but they don't specify what qualified actually means. I've been out of the industry for about 30 years but I have a degree is in EEE. I'm sure that I'm competent enough to remove the socket and make it safe - but am I qualified?

Surely I don't need to pay a spark to do this and certify it? Can anyone clarify?

If you feel your compedent then just remove it.just be carefull as it will most probably be part of lighting circuit ie feed in feed out or if your lucky it might be fed direct from light switch.if there is 2 cables you will have the problem of having to join them unless you can pull them up into loft (not sure of house layout) if your planning on covering the whole then the cables wouldn't be accessible. The only way round that is to use a maintenance free junction box ,but it's not ideal hiding cables behind walls

 

[RuraidhBoy]

If you feel your compedent then just remove it.just be carefull as it will most probably be part of lighting circuit ie feed in feed out or if your lucky it might be fed direct from light switch.if there is 2 cables you will have the problem of having to join them unless you can pull them up into loft (not sure of house layout) if your planning on covering the whole then the cables wouldn't be accessible. The only way round that is to use a maintenance free junction box ,but it's not ideal hiding cables behind walls

Yeah, I'm fairly competent/confident. When I started, I had to work alongside the sparks installing distribution boards etc then I got stuck behind a desk to be an engineer. Hated it but the skills stayed with me.

Everything is currently back to studs as part of the renovation so I know where everything is wired and I'll take care of that no probs. It's the notification stuff - don't want to say too much on here but I don't have the luxury of doing it and hoping no one knows.

Frustrating that because I don't have a certification, I have to get a spark in, and where I am, I'm looking at 8-10 weeks. Too small a job.

 

[RuraidhBoy]

If it was faulty, you could replace it under repair and maintenance without a certificate…. So disconnecting it completely shouldn’t need it.

There are many DIY projects going on across the country where a certificate is never going to be produced for the work done….. and in your case, how is anybody ever going to know.

If it’s a newish house, it could simply be fed from the nearest switch… just disconnect the live and neutral from there.

Can't say too much on here but, its a renovation and unfortunately, it will be known. Bummer.

 

[Jock from the north]

I'm looking to remove the shaver socket in our bathroom because it's never been used, but apparently this might be "notifiable" or "certifiable" under updated regs as it's "altering" a circuit in the bathroom.

A google led me to Part P but this doesn't apply in Scotland. So...searching and trying to navigate the Scottish building regs is a total mess, going round in circles. It's like someone has taken Part P and re-written it into 80 pages. I'm reading stuff about competent person is no longer applicable and now has to be done by a "qualified" person but they don't specify what qualified actually means. I've been out of the industry for about 30 years but I have a degree is in EEE. I'm sure that I'm competent enough to remove the socket and make it safe - but am I qualified?

Surely I don't need to pay a spark to do this and certify it? Can anyone clarify?

If you havnt applied for a building warrant then from what I gather the scottish bs only reccomend electrical works in homes etc are done by a sparky who is part of a government scheme.total boll£££s .it discrimination forcing experienced electricians to pay 1200 a year just to have a sticker on there van.thats what I'm being charged and to be honest it ain't worth it .

 

[RuraidhBoy]

If you havnt applied for a building warrant then from what I gather the scottish bs only reccomend electrical works in homes etc are done by a sparky who is part of a government scheme.total boll£££s .it discrimination forcing experienced electricians to pay 1200 a year just to have a sticker on there van.thats what I'm being charged and to be honest it ain't worth it .

It's insurance related - no warrant. It's BS as you say. Spoke to the local council and what I'm doing would be classed as "altering a circuit". My experience/expertise doesn't matter, it has to be carried out by registered electrician - i.e. someone with a sticker on their van as you say.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Scotland still comes under the UK Government and its legislation, the main point is are the recommendations to only use a registered electrician mandatory or a recommendation? Then look at your insurance to also make the same distinction. Also look to see what the terms and conditions are to apply for the Warrant and what it covers, again look at what the warrant issuing body consider to be a Registered Electrician, registered with whom, the UK competency register may be acceptable.

Reading this Forum is becoming more and more difficult every time I access it, the transparent headings get in the way and make it almost impossible to read the threads, Dan are you listening.

 

[littlespark]

Mike;
Scroll down to the bottom of page and click at the paintbrush icon….”EF25 Blue and White”



Change it to “New 2025”


Will get rid of the transparencies

 

[Mike Johnson]

@littlespark Thanks for that, but the paintbrush looks more like a not very convincing rocket, but no matter it worked, question is why did it change?

 

[littlespark]

Recent updates to the forum software I guess…. New themes maybe.
Glad it’s sorted.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Recent updates to the forum software I guess…. New themes maybe.
Glad it’s sorted.

The Who "Uncle Ernie" comes to mind.

 

[Jock from the north]

Scotland still comes under the UK Government and its legislation, the main point is are the recommendations to only use a registered electrician mandatory or a recommendation? Then look at your insurance to also make the same distinction. Also look to see what the terms and conditions are to apply for the Warrant and what it covers, again look at what the warrant issuing body consider to be a Registered Electrician, registered with whom, the UK competency register may be acceptable.

Reading this Forum is becoming more and more difficult every time I access it, the transparent headings get in the way and make it almost impossible to read the threads, Dan are you listening.

I just refresh the page.if there's a warrent involved the local council are looking for you to be a member of bsd ,Building standards division and a certifier of construction.it states it in some of there drawings but it's in the legend part where everything Is probably a generic print off.theres lots of stuff on the legend on some drawings that don't even apply to the actual plans.ventilation is a big thing ,especially in a warrent ,mechanical ventilation in office rooms say ,leaving an 8 to 10mm gap under doors and circulation spaces having adequate natural ventilation. More so in commercial warrents

 

[Jock from the north]

It's insurance related - no warrant. It's BS as you say. Spoke to the local council and what I'm doing would be classed as "altering a circuit". My experience/expertise doesn't matter, it has to be carried out by registered electrician - i.e. someone with a sticker on their van as you say.

I'm not sure they can demand the electrician should be part of a scheme ,if the electrician was a registered company with all there tickets ,training up to date and had completed say a Scottish building standard course which can be done on line I think there making a rod for there own back .all councils seem to be trying there hardest to destroy the high street.lots of shops lying empty due to the fact potential tenants want to do some alterations ie simply building a partition and in steps the council and architect adding thousands of extra pounds on to what is a simple conversion.my mate is doing a shop in montrose where the council have stipulated that the outside sign must be hand painted or stenciled in keeping with the character of the high street when the Turkish take away next door has a neon sign .

 

[R-fur]

SELCT are lobbying the Scottish Government to try and make it compulsory for all electricians to be a member of a scheme or work for someone who is. I am totally against this, it restricts proper fully qualified electricians but gives a free reign to companies who send unqualified staff out to do the work and have one qualified guy in the office signing off the test sheets

 

[Mike Johnson]

What is a fully qualified electrician? no such thing in England, is it different in Scotland?

 

[Jock from the north]

What is a fully qualified electrician? no such thing in England, is it different in Scotland?

What is a fully qualified electrician? no such thing in England, is it different in Scotland?

No .qualified electrician. But the iet have used the term on some of there literature.i guess it could mean your fully qualified regarding the scope of your work

 

[Mike Johnson]

No .qualified electrician. But the iet have used the term on some of there literature.i guess it could mean your fully qualified regarding the scope of your work

Afraid you will have to explain that too me, as far as I understand it there is no such qualification recognised by any statute in Scotland or the UK.

 

[Jock from the north]

Afraid you will have to explain that too me, as far as I understand it there is no such qualification recognised by any statute in Scotland or the UK.

I take your word for it ,I'm unfamiliar with legal wording regarding qualifications recognised by law in the UK.i hope never to have to find out with regards to standing in a court of law .looking at past grade cards it says the registered holder holds the qualifications listed on reverse .that's why I mentioned scope of work .you maybe qualified in the requirements for electrical installations 18th eddition 2022 .but I believe for the sake of simplicity concerning customers describing your self as a qualified electrician is easier than saying I hold the relevent qualifications for several different qualifications achieved .what would you describe yourself as ?

 

[Mike Johnson]

I would never describe myself as a qualified anything when the so call qualifications are not recognised by the Regulating authority i.e. the UK Government in a statute, all of the available so called qualifications are from made up organisations that purport to be either a training organisation or publish (miss leading) document saying they are Regulations when in fact they are just their interpretation of a BS and published by the IEE as "Regulations" the IEE document goes a long way toward this, but has not been adopted into statute and issued by the Secretary of State and therefore are not UK Regulations. The electrical industry needs a UK Government recognised body (institute or Association) and sanctioned training organisation that "want to be electricians" can join/attend and become members of with examinations (not multi choice) which prove they have the required skills and not just sat in a class room and had a BS read to them, certainly if electricians wish to be accepted as professionals within the construction industry this will need to change. The problem existing electricians have is they are so many that to implement and obtain that change will be almost impossible, but only almost, new and budding electricians could be the new breed or professionals that the industry is crying out for, never know may be able to charge a living wage or dare I say fee for their work as a percentage of the overall value of a contract, or am I being too ambitious.

 

[Jock from the north]

Certainly I would never describe myself as a fully qualified anything when the so call qualifications are not recognised by the Regulating authority i.e. the UK Government in a statute, all of the available so called qualifications are from made up organisations that purport to be either a training organisation or publish (miss leading) document saying they are Regulations when in fact they are just their interpretation of a BS and published by the IEE as "Regulations" the IEE document goes a long way toward this, but has not been adopted into statute and issued by the Secretary of State and therefore are not UK Regulations. The electrical industry needs a UK Government recognised body (institute or Association) and sanctioned training organisation that "want to be electricians" can join/attend and become members of with examinations (not multi choice) which prove they have the required skills and not just sat in a class room and had a BS read to them, certainly if electricians wish to be accepted as professionals within the construction industry this will need to change.

Probably never going to happen when there's to much money to be made from schemes like napit etc.scotland has the sqa which describes itself as a non departmental body that reports directly to the scottish government.

 

[megaohm]

I'm looking to remove the shaver socket in our bathroom because it's never been used, but apparently this might be "notifiable" or "certifiable" under updated regs as it's "altering" a circuit in the bathroom.

A google led me to Part P but this doesn't apply in Scotland. So...searching and trying to navigate the Scottish building regs is a total mess, going round in circles. It's like someone has taken Part P and re-written it into 80 pages. I'm reading stuff about competent person is no longer applicable and now has to be done by a "qualified" person but they don't specify what qualified actually means. I've been out of the industry for about 30 years but I have a degree is in EEE. I'm sure that I'm competent enough to remove the socket and make it safe - but am I qualified?

Surely I don't need to pay a spark to do this and certify it? Can anyone clarify?

Back to the original question...

Its a slight simplification but in scotland if the work is on a bungalow or 2 story house then almost nothing is notifiable, whereas in a flat or 3 story house almost everything is notifiable. If the OP is in a normal house then the work is not notifiable.

 

[Jock from the north]

I would never describe myself as a qualified anything when the so call qualifications are not recognised by the Regulating authority i.e. the UK Government in a statute, all of the available so called qualifications are from made up organisations that purport to be either a training organisation or publish (miss leading) document saying they are Regulations when in fact they are just their interpretation of a BS and published by the IEE as "Regulations" the IEE document goes a long way toward this, but has not been adopted into statute and issued by the Secretary of State and therefore are not UK Regulations. The electrical industry needs a UK Government recognised body (institute or Association) and sanctioned training organisation that "want to be electricians" can join/attend and become members of with examinations (not multi choice) which prove they have the required skills and not just sat in a class room and had a BS read to them, certainly if electricians wish to be accepted as professionals within the construction industry this will need to change. The problem existing electricians have is they are so many that to implement and obtain that change will be almost impossible, but only almost, new and budding electricians could be the new breed or professionals that the industry is crying out for, never know may be able to charge a living wage or dare I say fee for their work as a percentage of the overall value of a contract, or am I being too ambitious.

I'm not certain myself but if for instance an experienced electrician who had kept up all relevent training who found themselves in a uk court on manslughter charges due to some incident in there work place then a judge or prosecutor might very well refer to them as a qualified electrician .I'm no expert on law but I believe common law can make decisions through former judicial decisions rather than statutes .the prosecutor might make it his/her buissness to persuade the judge and jury that the person is qualified due to all there extensive training ,even if it was delivered via a recognised body [and not a uk Government body]which I believe select in Scotland are [there very cosy with the snp]then when your in jail awaiting appeal you can call yourself a qualified electrician. Most of this I gleamed from the Internet but not all.ive been on jury duty on an armed robbery case lasting 2 weeks and I've seen the way the defence and Lord advocate operate

I would never describe myself as a qualified anything when the so call qualifications are not recognised by the Regulating authority i.e. the UK Government in a statute, all of the available so called qualifications are from made up organisations that purport to be either a training organisation or publish (miss leading) document saying they are Regulations when in fact they are just their interpretation of a BS and published by the IEE as "Regulations" the IEE document goes a long way toward this, but has not been adopted into statute and issued by the Secretary of State and therefore are not UK Regulations. The electrical industry needs a UK Government recognised body (institute or Association) and sanctioned training organisation that "want to be electricians" can join/attend and become members of with examinations (not multi choice) which prove they have the required skills and not just sat in a class room and had a BS read to them, certainly if electricians wish to be accepted as professionals within the construction industry this will need to change. The problem existing electricians have is they are so many that to implement and obtain that change will be almost impossible, but only almost, new and budding electricians could be the new breed or professionals that the industry is crying out for, never know may be able to charge a living wage or dare I say fee for their work as a percentage of the overall value of a contract, or am I being too ambitious.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I have worked with the insurance Ombudsman as an expert witness for both the defence and prosecution on cases involving the death of an individual, during cross examination (after briefing the barrister) I have answered the question that only the BS is within the statute and that if any installation/work conformed with that BS or indeed exceeded the requirement of it then it is within the law, it is then up to the bench to decide if there is a case to answer.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I'm not certain myself but if for instance an experienced electrician who had kept up all relevent training who found themselves in a uk court on manslughter charges due to some incident in there work place then a judge or prosecutor might very well refer to them as a qualified electrician .

The problem is relevant training by whom? A judge would never call anyone Qualified they would ask any one standing on the witness rostrum what qualifications they had this would be open for the prosecution or defence to refute as not recognised by an authority or statute, the judge can only decide that someone with a degree in the discipline involved in the case carries more weight than someone that has attended a course by a spurious training organisation that has given a certificate saying they are trained in BSxxxx.

 

[Jock from the north]

I have worked with the insurance Ombudsman as an expert witness for both the defence and prosecution on cases involving the death of an individual, during cross examination (after briefing the barrister) I have answered the question that only the BS is within the statute and that if any installation/work conformed with that BS or indeed exceeded the requirement of it then it is within the law, it is then up to the bench to decide if there is a case to answer.

I gathered from your posts and threads etc you have great expertise within the industry.thats terrible the death of an individual wheather work related or otherwise .I realise this is a public forum so will not attempt to ask you regarding the cases .I did attend an niceic road show a few years back when they went into some detail of 2 fatal incidents in England where simple measures could have prevented it .they even said a piece of insulation tape over mcb saying "do not switch on" would have meant the guy would have went home at night .I think what they were referring to is when it comes to the death of an individual even though tape of course is in no means a way of safe isolation in this particular case it could and probably would have saved the man's life . I feel I need to add that in no way am I advocating the use of insulating tape as a method of safe isolation.

 

[westward10]

I think this record has been played before.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I think this record has been played before.

Indeed It has, but not as often as posters on here claiming to be a "fully qualified electrician"

 

[Jock from the north]

I think this record has been played before.

Speaking about records I was and still am a big jam fan .

 

[Mike Johnson]

Marmalade for me, lady mostly, gitchy gitchy la la.