Bonding to Water - lead pipe ... tut tut

DaveyD

DaveyD

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Hello you brilliant people,

Here is my problem, OSG says (if I remember), not to clamp bonding to soft metals. Customer has main water lead pipe coming in, stop cock, lead T to copper for kitchen etc , lead continues up burried in plaster to bathroom then to a small bit of copper, then plastic. Obviously want to clamp before junctions but its all lead.
Is the only way to bond after the T on the copper and then again in the copper in the bathroom?
TIA
Kind Regards, David
 
I think you can bond to lead but not using standard clamp as there is a chance of damaging the pipe.
I have seen braided cable swaged to lead pipes in the past, not aware of any reg against it but don't have my BRB to hand.
 
Bond onto the first available bit of copper if it's all solid joints..........alternatively I would not have any problem with bonding the lead on the consumers side of the stopcock despite what the OSG might say......
 
Can you not bond within 600mm of the service meter? is this in lead, dont forget it say's SHOULD be? to hard pipe if that is the only part of the installation that has hard pipe then that is the location to be connected to, as the small red book says.
 
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DaveyD if it was me I'd just bond at the first bit of copper, I don't carry fancy clamps for lead. As the book says if possible within 600mm if not .... not. Just check on the lead bits after you've done the work what the reading is to sleep safe.
 
SPARTYKUS said:
DaveyD if it was me I'd just bond at the first bit of copper, I don't carry fancy clamps for lead. As the book says if possible within 600mm if not .... not. Just check on the lead bits after you've done the work what the reading is to sleep safe.
Click to expand...
... so after the lead T junction on the copper to the kitchen.
 
old lead pipe , the metal is about1/4" thick. i see no reason not to clamp it.
 
Bond to the copper, test the continuity to the lead parts of the installation with your water bond disconnected from the MET with a long R2 lead then list it as a departure on your certificate stating that you have tested and confirmed continuity on all other parts of the pipework. Job done.
 
No you cannot bond to lead pipes. Bond to the first piece of copper pipe even if it's more than 600mm from the stop cock. The reason for this is the clamp will work loose and damage the pipe. Then you have a bad connection; and no bond is a serious matter. Then check with a low ohm meter to check continuity of bond. If below 0.5 Ohms there is no need to bond other pipe work. Remember to check continuity and you will be fine. Regards gdr7671 MITE
 
gdr7671 said:
No you cannot bond to lead pipes. Bond to the first piece of copper pipe even if it's more than 600mm from the stop cock. The reason for this is the clamp will work loose and damage the pipe. Then you have a bad connection; and no bond is a serious matter. Then check with a low ohm meter to check continuity of bond. If below 0.5 Ohms there is no need to bond other pipe work. Remember to check continuity and you will be fine. Regards gdr7671 MITE
Click to expand...

Please advise where it tells us this please .........................

I would have no problem bonding to a lead water pipe as they are designed to withstand mains water pressure which can easily exceed 10bar of pressure, and as that lead will be over 50 years old, and not leaking I assume, I don't think fitting a BS 951 clamp to it is going to do it much harm . I'm not sure how thick exactly mains lead pipe is, but it's thick.

Gas is a different thing. Lead gas pipe was thinner due to the fact that gas pressure was just millibars, and so thinner pipe was used to cut costs. I would definately not be in to much of an hurry to clamp that, but thankfully lead gas pipe is less seen today.

Though it may be falling on deaf ears, I would be advising the customer that the lead really should be replaced, and be contacting the local water board about this.
 
yet again , i agree with malcolm. lead water pipe is thick and even more resistant to crushing than thin copper. what did we do when all the pipework was lead, stick a bit of copper in for a clamp?
 
gdr7671 said:
No you cannot bond to lead pipes. Bond to the first piece of copper pipe even if it's more than 600mm from the stop cock. The reason for this is the clamp will work loose and damage the pipe. Then you have a bad connection; and no bond is a serious matter. Then check with a low ohm meter to check continuity of bond. If below 0.5 Ohms there is no need to bond other pipe work. Remember to check continuity and you will be fine. Regards gdr7671 MITE
Click to expand...
gdr7671 typo, should have said " If below 0.05 ohms..."
 
Thanks, you are correct. The last meeting i attended on earthing and bonding emphasized that bs951 earth clamps are unsuitable for connection to lead pipes due to there ability to loosening due to the softness of lead. They suggested flexible earth braiding tape as dno's do when earthing lead sheathed cables. Have you ever seen a cable jointer use a bs951 clamp around a lead tapped cable? Many thanks for pointing out my typo error.
 
gdr7671 said:
Reg 544.1.2, BS 7430, Electrical Design-a good practice guide The Copper Development Association
Click to expand...

544.1.2 does not mention lead pipe in anyway, are you getting mixed up with the words soft and solid

I don't have a copy of the BS 7430 with me, but as far as I can remember it also dosen't mention about bonding to lead pipes, but I may be wrong there and so can't say either way

Could you provide a link to this Copper development association and there take on the situation.
 
malcolmsanford said:
544.1.2 does not mention lead pipe in anyway, are you getting mixed up with the words soft and solid

I don't have a copy of the BS 7430 with me, but as far as I can remember it also dosen't mention about bonding to lead pipes, but I may be wrong there and so can't say either way

Could you provide a link to this Copper development association and there take on the situation.
Click to expand...
The Copper development association do an excellent book called electrical design. They are based in St. Albans and can be reached on 01727 731200 Verulam Industrial Estate, 224 London Road, St Albans, Herts, AL1 1AQ. Thanks GDR
 
This may be of interest,
I was looking at a job last week , while checking for main bonding i noticed that the gas pipe on the consumers side was lead, and went from the meter under concrete floor and the fed cooker / boiler/ ect.
Main bonding was present on the pipe next to meter on consumers side, there had been a c.u. change three years ago and the main bonding had been installed at that time.
Now heres the thing...the installer had split open a 28mm copper pipe and used it as a " jacket " around the lead pipe, then fixed the clamp to that.
What do you think ?
Jem
 
It would possibly distribute the crushing effect around the whole of the pipe rather than a squashing effect on 2 sides
Either way the lead pipe still needs pressure on it for an adequate connection
I dont thonk its the problem solver that it first may appear to be
 
Not sure if you can get hold of the old Hepworth spring clamps but for lead gas pipes they would be my weapon of choice.

As Des says it will distribute the pressure along that pipe, as gas pipe is a lot thinner than mains water lead pipe, but it is still very much a hit and hope scenario regarding crushing it.

Still to be fair the sparks did have a good attempt at it, and doing this is better than just walking away and not do anything, but he was a brave lad/lass
 
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Yes , Thats was my first thought, must admit, it was tight, i couldnt shift it with my hand
 
Having read through this thread,It seems the best advise that I can agree with is a mixture of 2 opinions

Where the pipe is water theres little problem with a little care needed
Where lead is involved,if you cant even get the clamp on the brass coupler at the meter(which is usually do able )then get a plumber to solder an eye on the pipe for a lug to use ( not what I would do,but its a solution)

I have never had issue with clamping a lead water or gas pipe,(but thats keeping in mind the slackening property mentioned),so obviously where practical it goes on the copper section
 
This is the first time ive seen a lead gas pipe in service that i can remeber, however , in my area there are still many propertys with lead water pipes.
 
just read that. appears it applies to council houses, as it refers to local housing authotiry.
 
JEMMAJONES said:
This is the first time ive seen a lead gas pipe in service that i can remeber, however , in my area there are still many propertys with lead water pipes.
Click to expand...

One bit of advise if you do find lead gas pipe systems in an house
Dont for one moment think that old outlets in walls are redundant,many will still be live and the nastiest thing is they tended to shove any pipe slack willy nilly around a wall,so its difficult to be sure where the pipe is located even when ends are exposed above ceilings and on the wall
 
In my area , they will change the water pipe, but the home owner has to pay the bill as there is no evidence that drinking through a lead pipe is harmfull ( water boards words , not mine )
 
i've been drinking water from lead pipes all my life. i now glow in the dark and am worth more in scrap value than steptoe's yard stock.
 
tel, you'd be alright in Fukishima too, I hear property is cheap there, you will be immune !
 
just bid on a power station site there. got planning for 1000 houses, all underfloor heating system already installed.
 
JEMMAJONES said:
This may be of interest,
I was looking at a job last week , while checking for main bonding i noticed that the gas pipe on the consumers side was lead, and went from the meter under concrete floor and the fed cooker / boiler/ ect.
Main bonding was present on the pipe next to meter on consumers side, there had been a c.u. change three years ago and the main bonding had been installed at that time.
Now heres the thing...the installer had split open a 28mm copper pipe and used it as a " jacket " around the lead pipe, then fixed the clamp to that.
What do you think ?
Jem
Click to expand...
This is the guidance given in bs 7430 and also by the copper development association. I found this out at a cpd course earlier this year. In my experience some inspectors
except bonding to lead some do not. To interpret reg 544.1.2 to bond to a hard metal does not constitute lead. I have found most bs951 clamps work loose due to the thermal constraints. To find out more contact the institute of metallurgy. It has nothing to due with the crushing of the lead as most people assume. Thanks for replying. GDR
 
Thanks for all your opinions. Good debate. I think I will clamp to the first copper and check for low resistance to rest of property.
Regards
David.
 
Penance said:
By more honest do you mean paranoid?
Click to expand...

Just being honest, the word paranoia scares me :D


I'm a sucker for siding with the downtrodden in our society and the statement made by Jemma, that there was no link with health problems, had me scuttling for the mouse, rather than any concern about squashing lead (too long in the tooth to have that concern):)


Children are the ones who's lives can be damaged by lead and the thought that government could pretend it didn't was the spur to get the mouse in action
 

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DaveyD

DaveyD

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Bonding to Water - lead pipe ... tut tut
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