- Thread starter littlespark
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People have short memories.
The UK government sold out fishing in 1970's to get better access for financial services, same thing will happen again."
Also, when the common market had access to our fishing grounds the EU Provided grants to fishing operators to upgrade their fishing fleets to make them more efficient with the proviso that the grants were match funded by the host country. Result: The French and Spanish govt's provided the money, the Uk gov't. refused. There followed a peiod where British businesses sold their quota to better equipped foreign fleets.
Perhaps memories are too short to remember thatFarage, oops sorry, farago.
And you know how that turned out, Nigel Farage blaming the eu!
Not a chance
People have short memories.
The UK government sold out fishing in 1970's to get better access for financial services, same thing will happen again."
Also, when the common market had access to our fishing grounds the EU Provided grants to fishing operators to upgrade their fishing fleets to make them more efficient with the proviso that the grants were match funded by the host country. Result: The French and Spanish govt's provided the money, the Uk gov't. refused. There followed a peiod where British businesses sold their quota to better equipped foreign fleets.
Perhaps memories are too short to remember that
And you know how that turned out, Nigel Farage blaming the eu!
D
Darkwood
At present we do not have a profitable farming industry and our fishing industry was decimated when we agreed to allow EU coastal nations fish most of our waters.
When I say we don't have a farming industry I mean EU regulations in the form of the Common Agricultural Policy has forced our farming industries into non profit subsidised entities, it was all planned to ensure EU dependency which of course failed on this occasion, as we were the second largest contributor to the EU and only one of about 4 who contribute any real amount our industries often ending up paying the cost of subsidising for poorer EU block nations, not only that but EU red tape put in place a system that saw millions of acres of land been bought up for foreign investors who just sat on it as empty land while recieving a very subsidy for simply owning it, in fact if the government actually bought the land in the first place that subsidy would have paid the back 10 fold...
Now we are leaving there is a desperate attempt to make us follow EU rules and laws and play a 'level playing field' basically they know how strong our position is and we could hit the EU really hard by competing on the doorstep, the thing is the EU cannot match or offer the tariffs and free trade we can now do with other countries due to the way its protectionist Single Market operates.
As long as Johnson stays tough on love and sticks to full divergence and pushes deals with the other big world players then we can only prosper and I mean an economic boost not seen in generations, even all our major contracts no longer have to be fielded to all EU members which again will boost our building sectors... if we give in to any EU demands then we lose most of our opportunities, we stick at a full exit and even WTO would be a better outcome then ending up eternally tied to EU in some regularity way, but as the EU are in a very bad negotiating position now all we will see is blustering, threats which eventually will turn to begging like solutions (PS .. that has already started from some major EU representatives who no longer can deny the position the UK is in)
When I say we don't have a farming industry I mean EU regulations in the form of the Common Agricultural Policy has forced our farming industries into non profit subsidised entities, it was all planned to ensure EU dependency which of course failed on this occasion, as we were the second largest contributor to the EU and only one of about 4 who contribute any real amount our industries often ending up paying the cost of subsidising for poorer EU block nations, not only that but EU red tape put in place a system that saw millions of acres of land been bought up for foreign investors who just sat on it as empty land while recieving a very subsidy for simply owning it, in fact if the government actually bought the land in the first place that subsidy would have paid the back 10 fold...
Now we are leaving there is a desperate attempt to make us follow EU rules and laws and play a 'level playing field' basically they know how strong our position is and we could hit the EU really hard by competing on the doorstep, the thing is the EU cannot match or offer the tariffs and free trade we can now do with other countries due to the way its protectionist Single Market operates.
As long as Johnson stays tough on love and sticks to full divergence and pushes deals with the other big world players then we can only prosper and I mean an economic boost not seen in generations, even all our major contracts no longer have to be fielded to all EU members which again will boost our building sectors... if we give in to any EU demands then we lose most of our opportunities, we stick at a full exit and even WTO would be a better outcome then ending up eternally tied to EU in some regularity way, but as the EU are in a very bad negotiating position now all we will see is blustering, threats which eventually will turn to begging like solutions (PS .. that has already started from some major EU representatives who no longer can deny the position the UK is in)
The reason our fishing industry was decimated was because the govt. refused to support it in the same way the French and Spanish govt's did.
As for trade, Liz Truss's department issued a damning report yesterday on the prospects for the economy with a trade deal with the usa.
Read it here:
British economy 'to grow 0.16% at best under US trade deal'
Admission lays bare limited benefits of ‘ambitious’ agreement with Donald Trump
More memory refreshing here:
EU countries BUY up British fishing quotas BEFORE Brexit
BRITAIN’s hopes of taking back control of its seas look to be in jeopardy after it was revealed that European countries are rapidly buying up the UK's fishing quotas ready for Brexit.
Columnists | Express.co.uk
Express columnists. The Daily Express and Sunday Express columnists among them Ann Widdecombe, Vanessa Feltz, Frederick Forsyth. Opinion and analysis from columnists
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D
Darkwood
@picturevalve ... when you source your info from the uk press it's not a good rebuttal regardless of their leaning, please cite me the tabled discussions in full which in any real trade deal are often private with just a few deliberate leaks to fuel political agendas regardless of them been well out of context, if what the papers said about brexit were true we would not be where we are now.
Hi darkwood, I don't see any citations in your posts. This is a good summation of the present situation:
www.independent.co.uk
I don't have the time to "trawl" through the endless eu and gov't documents to find the exact data. As the article above states the decline of our fishing ports was mainly due to Icelandic legislation, the sale of quotas has been documented for years in all the papers.
Britain's fishy role in the quota-hopping scandal
Foreign vessels are legally taking a large chunk of the UK's fishing quota. But it is our own government's double-think and double-talk that is to blame rather than the minefield of EU rules, says John Lichfield
www.independent.co.uk
D
Darkwood
My point was we had to give up the majority of our fishing grounds when we first joined, that was balanced out with access to Icelands fishing grounds but if I recall it was 2012 that Iceland pulled which desimated our industries, the EU should have rebalanced the EU fishing quotas to reflect Iceland pulling out but like as always has been the case they ignored our pleas, they had no issue watching our industry crumble just so they kept the status quo with all the other coastal EU members.Hi darkwood, I don't see any citations in your posts. This is a good summation of the present situation:
I don't have the time to "trawl" through the endless eu and gov't documents to find the exact data. As the article above states the decline of our fishing ports was mainly due to Icelandic legislation, the sale of quotas has been documented for years in all the papers.Britain's fishy role in the quota-hopping scandal
Foreign vessels are legally taking a large chunk of the UK's fishing quota. But it is our own government's double-think and double-talk that is to blame rather than the minefield of EU rules, says John Lichfield
The boot is well and truly on the other foot now and all those countries that voted down our request to larger access of our own waters to help preserve our industries are the very ones demanding we continue to give them full access... the irony is almost comical.
So when the UK holds out its hand for help we are ignored and our industries are decimated, now several EU nations are saying we cant block access because it would devastate their fishing industry - had they been amicable in the first place and redistributed allowance after Icelands pull out we wouldn't be where we are now and I would expect it would have been a mutual beneficial agreement that carried on post brexit.
We'll have to see if the gov't. of the day sells out the fishing industry in order to allow the financial sector full access.
D
Darkwood
I doubt full access is on any card, partial access maybe in the region of 15 - 20% as part of a deal as oppose to the 60+ % as it stands, also the issue the UK has had is the fish never recognised fishing allotted fields which often meant we had little to no access to the better fishing grounds, this is why we were buying fish from countries that caught it in our own waters and paying premium price for it.
Like I said, the only ones complaining here are the countries who blocked the rebalance of the fishing quotas and imho karma has struck.
Like I said, the only ones complaining here are the countries who blocked the rebalance of the fishing quotas and imho karma has struck.
"My point was we had to give up the majority of our fishing grounds when we first joined, that was balanced out with access to Icelands fishing grounds but if I recall it was 2012 that Iceland pulled which decimated our industries, "
Iceland extended the fishing limits to 200 miles in 1975, recognised by Britain in 1976 after the cod wars.
[automerge]1583328171[/automerge]
" this is why we were buying fish from countries that caught it in our own waters and paying premium price for it."
My recollection is that the fishing companies were getting a better price in Europe than in Britain.
Iceland extended the fishing limits to 200 miles in 1975, recognised by Britain in 1976 after the cod wars.
[automerge]1583328171[/automerge]
" this is why we were buying fish from countries that caught it in our own waters and paying premium price for it."
My recollection is that the fishing companies were getting a better price in Europe than in Britain.
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"Iceland's fishing minister has said the country would "never join the European Union" because the country is thriving outside.
The country applied to join the EU in 2009, but dropped the application last year.
A key factor, said Gunnar Bragi Sveinsson, was the desire to retain control over fishing grounds.
The nation now has one of the most modern and productive fishing industries in the world."
Source: Iceland fishing trade 'better off out' - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36587253
The country applied to join the EU in 2009, but dropped the application last year.
A key factor, said Gunnar Bragi Sveinsson, was the desire to retain control over fishing grounds.
The nation now has one of the most modern and productive fishing industries in the world."
Source: Iceland fishing trade 'better off out' - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36587253
Fish is just about the only product they can sell, the banking foray didn't go too well. Not comparing equals here I'm afraid.
Overly strong worded there, Tel. I’m sure our closest euro neighbours don’t like being called frogs.
Now get back to theiving, you scouse git.
Now get back to theiving, you scouse git.
" re fishing waters... the frogs and the spaniels have had it so good for so long, raping our waters, now it's going to bite them on the arse."
Our govt. gave them all that in exchange for preferential city of London treatment.
I'd agree about limiting quotas for everyone.
Our govt. gave them all that in exchange for preferential city of London treatment.
I'd agree about limiting quotas for everyone.
get your clan skirt and claymore dusted off. this is war, you sweaty sock.Overly strong worded there, Tel. I’m sure our closest euro neighbours don’t like being called frogs.
Now get back to theiving, you scouse git.
. and don't forget, it was Napoleon who first though of a channel tunnel, so his frogs could conquer us Brits.
..I'm ready for Em frogs - "Get a Jolt from my Electrodes"...
Trialing a new assimilation method.
AC/DC where has the music gone !
The Spanish market for Scottish shellfish is huge.
They pay more for it than we are prepared to "shell" out.
However, they demand a certain level of supply.
Thus, you can't buy it quay-side anymore, unless the fisherman has filled his quota and has some spare.
However, if the shellfish lorry is held up at a border now, those shellfish may die, so the load is worthless.
We need to man up, and pay the right price.
Take away the transport cost and the price is more acceptable.
The option is to ignore the problem and put hundreds out of work.
Trust me...I know this.
They pay more for it than we are prepared to "shell" out.
However, they demand a certain level of supply.
Thus, you can't buy it quay-side anymore, unless the fisherman has filled his quota and has some spare.
However, if the shellfish lorry is held up at a border now, those shellfish may die, so the load is worthless.
We need to man up, and pay the right price.
Take away the transport cost and the price is more acceptable.
The option is to ignore the problem and put hundreds out of work.
Trust me...I know this.
D
Darkwood
I'll agree with the cod war situation and yes it hit the fishing industry but nothing like when Iceland fully pulled out, and where was the EU to realise our situation, turned its back and basically said stick it, again I will reflect on the reversal of the situation and now how the EU is demanding we cannot do to those countries the same as they did to us, there is gross irony here and what may come is well deserved in my opinion, I am epathetic for the fishermen that may lose out but they cannot attack us for this, they should reflect on there own governments past selfish position and that of the EU before blaming us.
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Have you got a reference for that?
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Darkwood
Firstly I probably should have expanded on my comment as to what I was referring to, you mentioned the cod wars of the past but that has been superseded by the mackerel wars that are still going on to some extent, the UK were a heavy fisher of mackerel and the story behind this is very complex but here is a link below, basically Iceland were set to join the EU but the financial crash bankrupt Iceland, they resorted to replenishing their fishing industry and ignored all agreed limitations on quota's, they fell out of favour with the EU and withdrew their application to join, meanwhile they imposed restrictions on fishing for other breeds from the EU within their waters and also forced the hand of the EU which left our fisheries badly damaged.
The point of bringing all this up is that the EU left us high and dry and failed to balance fishing within our own waters following the damage done by Iceland pulling out of the game, we put our complaints to Brussels but we were ignored and all those countries making a tidy profit in our waters voted down our plea, hence I said Karma - the coin has turned and now these same nations are saying we cannot take our waters back because it would badly damage their own industries yet they sat back and watched ours go and failed to offer even a small olive branch.
It is a long read and really doesn't get to the point until the header 'The conflict escalates' and what also badly damaged us 'Loss of marine stewardship'.
Brexit is our chance to reboot the industry under our own terms and sell to a new world trade that is heading our way, so even if the EU puts heavy tariffs on fish it will not do any damage, we simply fish for our new market all of which will generate thousands of jobs regardless.
Mackerel War | British Sea Fishing
The Mackerel War is an on-going and so far unresolved dispute between Britain (backed by the European Union and Norway) and the combined forces of Iceland and the Faeroe Islands.
britishseafishing.co.uk
The turnover is not the way to look at this, it is the jobs it can create if we can get back our fishing industry, a large company can employ 100,000 people and make a profit of £1000 and fall below the tax line, this still means the company is viable and 100,000 people are in payed jobs and will spend their wages which puts back into the economy.
If we can take back our waters then the boost to fishing industry also creates jobs down the line for new and old companies in the supply chain, your error here is reading into a figure and % of what the fishing industry directly generates to the total economic figures, this is often deliberately played out this way for political reasons and bias, brexit has exposed so much bias in the media and this is a prime example, what the pro EU bias fail to promote and is what is important is that the jobs it will generate is the key thing, pitting the % of national revenue is irrelevent.
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D
Darkwood
I beg to differ, the government has promised to keep to its pledges for which it was voted in and one of them was to take back full control which includes our fishing waters, I dare say there will be some agreement to limited access as part of a deal but nothing on the scale of the current offset against us the EU has, even if we give 20% access this still knocks 2/3rds of the EU's access and respectively we make the gains.. the reason why I say its contribution to the economy is irrelevant is because you need to factor in the strength of the economy, we are the 6th largest in the world so in reflection as a percentage fishing isn't going to show a big impact, yet if you were to look at the millions in revenue we currently get and them look at the possibilities and the 10,000's of jobs it would create both directly and indirectly then this isn't an opportunity the government would throw away.
Given we now hold all the cards, we have no reason or need to sacrifice a queen here to win the game unlike it was under May.
Given we now hold all the cards, we have no reason or need to sacrifice a queen here to win the game unlike it was under May.
I hope that the fisheries deal that's agreed will be a licence type deal. So a French fishing boat can apply for a licence (at significant cost) to fish in UK waters. This would probably limit the amount he could catch, the fishing type and be time limited, like for 1 year only say. This would allow us to control our waters, soften the blow to the militant frenchies and allow time for us to rebuild our own fishing fleet.
D
Darkwood
Like I said I dare say a limited access agreement would probably be the way to go, the problem here is policing such a deal, if you limit catches then you have to efficiently police them as a deterrent to them been ignored, I agree a total block to our waters wouldn't be a good move and any agreement should be subject to annual reviews and any country defying its allotted limits should be punished in the review.
I've just been sent this by a friend, perhaps betrays the (true?) gov't. thinking on the subject:
www.fwi.co.uk
Defra adviser slammed over 'farmers not needed' comments - Farmers Weekly
Industry leaders have hit back after a government adviser suggested the UK doesn't need farmers and could import all its food instead. Remarks made by
I've just been sent this by a friend, perhaps betrays the (true?) gov't. thinking on the subject:
Defra adviser slammed over 'farmers not needed' comments - Farmers Weekly
Industry leaders have hit back after a government adviser suggested the UK doesn't need farmers and could import all its food instead. Remarks made by
i just had a scan read of the article, and it states that the comments were made in a personal email, therefore nothing to do with govt, and possibly not meant for public. Ie, stolen or otherwise illegally obtained.
There are new technologies that I do believe farmers should be adopting. Vertical farming, where crops are grown in a warehouse, on shelves with the optimum water and uv light to grow, the warehouses using pv to power everything. Takes up a lot less land per tonne of crop.
Another thing in development is what could be called test tube meat. Where the cells are grown in a lab to create edible meat, even though no animals were killed to produce it.
Take that, vegans!
D
Darkwood
We already have a company using led lights and captured rain to grow tomatoes on a super industrial scale, we are already turning the curve of dependency and the only sufferers are those EU nations we were buying them from, it's cheaper, more environmentally friendly and can be tailored with taste by nutrient control... we will not use farmers in the traditional sense but still employ there expertise and land to build these super eco green houses.
I don’t remember that during the campaign Darkwood ‘vote Brexit and get tasteless tomatoes and meat made in laboratories’
You’re wrong anyway. We grow some of the best veg and rear some of the best meat in the world, but not enough, and the fruit and veg is seasonal. So, we import the shortfall and always will do.
The price will go up and our agriculture industry will suffer but hey ho it’s what we voted for.
D
Darkwood
I never mentioned meat, I never said anything about not needing a farming industry either, I was reflecting on a real business already out there that is producing cheaper produce, using less water and no chemicals and now we are not EU regulated post 2020 we can totally benefit from such growing industries and not suffer EU red tape burden that crippled many of our farmers. I'm not sure where your post is coming from as I didn't bring up many points you injected into your reply.
Sorry Darkwood I meant to quote Littlespark's post before yours as well, where he talks about test tube meats.
I was addressing that, and the super industrial scale tomatoes that you mentioned.
D
Darkwood
No worries, thought it was a bit abrasive but mine is an actual working industry that already supplies big supermarkets all year round for a seasonal product.... it's the future unlike garlic bread
Now I'm doubly sorry Darkwood, I would never be knowingly abrasive. I try to engage in discussion and debate without upsetting people.
D
Darkwood
I don't mean it 'was' abrasive as you have since added context to confirm that you were replying to 2 people not one, it merely (as a response to me only for which I took it) didn't really fit what I posted and seemed like you were baiting some kind of knee-jerk reaction, when I am told 'I am wrong' I tend to like context that would have explained with what and why you disagree and more so some citation to back that opinion up.
Abrasive is probably a too strong a word here in reflection but it was somewhat a confusingly baiting response, anyway, water under the bridge you were polite enough to respond and correct the confusion.
PS - now we have context though, what evidence do you have to show that prices will go up, even as a Brexiteer I simply cannot make a bald claim on the contrary hence I gave an example where the UK is reducing its dependency and reducing costs to boot for the end user.
Well as ever it’s down to the final agreement we sign with the EU. If we exit without a deal and on full WTO terms then there will be tariffs on our food imports, for example 21% on tomatoes. Factor in the extra transport costs i.e. customs clearance and delays at Dover then it’s clear, to me at least that prices will rise.
This s the worst-case scenario I think, and I still feel (possible naively) that a decent settlement will be agreed.
Do you have any evidence that prices will reduce?
Well... quite alot actually. Think about all the things that we currently have to pay a tariff on that don't originate from the EU... Pineapples for example ! EU tariff if 5.8% I think... but once we've left... 0%. There's a very very long list of EU tariffs that we won't need to pay if we revert to WTO rules.
And imagine if Barnier & co. stipulate a deal that harms Spanish or Italian exports to the UK... they'll be riots on the streets of Rome and Madrid !!!
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