Change in the Law regarding RCDs in Rental Properties

[Spazz]

I have been in contact with my local AM about the need for a legal requirement for all rental properties to contain RCDs to protect against electric shock, she fully agrees with myself that this is a requirement which needs to be brought inline with the requirements that are imposed with Gas Safety.

I have the backing of the Electrical Safety Council with this, and now looking for the backing of all the members on here as well.

Please visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Electrical-Safety/434757336534379 and like this page.

This is now being put in front of the Welsh Housing Minister to get this imposed in Wales, then we will be looking at UK wide.

Your backing would be greatly appreciated with this


Admins please sticky this

 

[Spazz]

I have also sent 20 emails to famous people asking for their support - firstly to get more public on board with the idea
secondly to spread the word - using their money.

Most people know they are meant get it signed off, but the problem is how many sparkys are signing joe public's work - this is what needs to be taken control of!

 

[paul_griff]

I have been in contact with my local AM about the need for a legal requirement for all rental properties to contain RCDs to protect against electric shock, she fully agrees with myself that this is a requirement which needs to be brought inline with the requirements that are imposed with Gas Safety.

I have the backing of the Electrical Safety Council with this, and now looking for the backing of all the members on here as well.

Please visit https://www.facebook.com/pages/Electrical-Safety/434757336534379 and like this page.

This is now being put in front of the Welsh Housing Minister to get this imposed in Wales, then we will be looking at UK wide.

Your backing would be greatly appreciated with this


Admins please sticky this

RCD's are only a good thing, but this could only be applied at change of tenant

 

[Guitarist]

Sorry if I am missing something here. Are you saying that it should become law for all rental properties to have RCD's fitted, but the millions of private dwellings in the rest of the UK can continue as they are?
Surely a life is a life....

 

[Spazz]

RCD's are only a good thing, but this could only be applied at change of tenant

Why - how long does it take to change a main switch for an RCD? not long!

RCD's are not notifiable!

You only have to check Zs.

The problems comes where you have an earth leakage.

I normally insist in them having a full EICR done at the same time - then your looking at change-overs.
But I normally persuade them to have a full CU change and tell them that it includes a free EICR and I can do it for the same price plus I will also throw in 6 years work guarantee as well.

EICR is an inspection - you do a full inspection when you do a CU change
6 years work guarantee - standard with all notifiable work - but you make out its a free be.

They usually go for the CU change.

Out of interest how much does everyone charge for:
EICR and MK RCD change?
Replacement CU (10 way) - also how much does the parts cost?

Both have all earth bonding in place and no problems - simple change.

 

[oldtimer]

Nicholas I have done a similar thing with the Scottish Parliament on their review with rental properties with regards to testing and insisting on scheme provider members only that can sign. So what wrong with that well I had to remind them that if they did this it would be a restriction of free trade under European law an example would be the 2 boxers who could not get a permit to fight in the uk but because Luxemburg gave them one they could not be stopped from plying their trade as it were. I also highlighted that the Schemies had a conflict of interest as they were advising the committee but at the same time they would gain financially selling courses and registration plus I highlighted that the Visual Electrical Inspection Report was not worth the paper it was written on and enquired if it was a legal document why was it not included in the BGB.

Plus the regs are not retrospective so as some of the guys say it it passes muster then it ok so am i putting this down NO because it is either going to be the Welsh or the Scottish Parliments who will pass something a bit like the minimum cost and the no promotions on alcohol law up here that is being adopted by the rest of the UK so I ont think they will force the use of RCDs but more like push them in that direction or in other word get an EICR every 5 years but if no RCD then get it every year so economically you would be cheaper to get a RCD yes politics work in a strange way so all the best and good luck

 

[Spazz]

Thank note taken Oldtimer.

Im going to find out what the welsh minister says in reply to the letter the AM is sending him next week and see where to go from there.

I have a few more contacts and places to go.

I am posting all letters on the Facebook page so if anyone wants to follow it please do.

There is no harm in trying is there?

 

[spark 68]

The thing is Nicholas, an upfront RCD does not comply with the current regs, agreed it is better than not having one at all, but how would you square this, as in written in law ?, I know we have sometimes 'bent' the regs in some situations (again safer than it was), but for someone to actually sign and legislate to break the regs is another matter IMO.

10 years for a rented property - they are still domestic (as far as NAPIT are concerned) - 5 years for commercial

I think you will find the recommended Max is 5 years for rented accommodation, GN3 table 3.2, general domestic (private) is max 10 years.

Some LA's already have requirements above BS7671 (don't forget BS7671 it the minimum requirement) WRT RCD protection on sockets etc., and in some cases have insisted on this requirement on the private sector too, but agreed this depends on the individual LA, and it would be nice to have some consistency.

Some private landlord's insurance companies are also insisting on EICR's and RCD protection too, but again this is dependent on individual companies.

Part Pee, is bad enough (for many reasons), do we really want more 'ill thought out legislation' ?
Iam not disagreeing with you btw, but until the powers that be are all singing from the same hymn sheet, and/or get some common sense, I fear little will change, it is not that the concepts are a bad thing per se, it is just once the Government get involved, you just know they will balls it up, or balls up the implementation of it, which usually results in the legitimate trader being penalised, or have additional costs and paperwork heaped on us while the 'rogue element' will just carry on regardless.

 

[Spazz]

The thing is Nicholas, an upfront RCD does not comply with the current regs, agreed it is better than not having one at all, but how would you square this, as in written in law ?, I know we have sometimes 'bent' the regs in some situations (again safer than it was), but for someone to actually sign and legislate to break the regs is another matter IMO.


I think you will find the recommended Max is 5 years for rented accommodation, GN3 table 3.2, general domestic (private) is max 10 years.

Some LA's already have requirements above BS7671 (don't forget BS7671 it the minimum requirement) WRT RCD protection on sockets etc., and in some cases have insisted on this requirement on the private sector too, but agreed this depends on the individual LA, and it would be nice to have some consistency.

Some private landlord's insurance companies are also insisting on EICR's and RCD protection too, but again this is dependent on individual companies.

Part Pee, is bad enough (for many reasons), do we really want more 'ill thought out legislation' ?
Iam not disagreeing with you btw, but until the powers that be are all singing from the same hymn sheet, and/or get some common sense, I fear little will change, it is not that the concepts are a bad thing per se, it is just once the Government get involved, you just know they will balls it up, or balls up the implementation of it, which usually results in the legitimate trader being penalised, or have additional costs and paperwork heaped on us while the 'rogue element' will just carry on regardless.

I fully agree with everything you have said.

Again same problem consistency! always the same problem!
You mention that some insurers ask for RCD and EICRs but I am yet to find one. They all said to me that they cant justify it until the law changes!

ITs the same problem - passing the buck!

Don't forget that the BGB is not a legal document however if we dont follow it the bodies we work under wont stand behind us (not saying they would anyway), the insurance company would not cover us if something went wrong, and the courts will refure to it when they prosecute us.

As you and everyone keeps saying who is going to police it, what about the rogues.
Don't get me wrong I would rather a rogue install a RCD and hash something up (the RCD will not stay active) than the rouge not install one and hash the same thing up.
Don't forget without a RCD we are only relaying on that circuit drawing more current than the fuse is rated for for it to blow.

Think about it:

average human body = 1500 ohms (for this example)
Voltage = 230v

Ohms Law!
Current draw: 153mA - DEAD (100mA at 50Hz (230v) will kill an adult)

This would not trip any MCB or fuse - however it would trip a 30mA RCD within 40ms - saving the persons life!

 

[Spazz]

Dont get me wrong I fully agree with what everyone has said!

If I was doing this on my own then I would not stand a chance!
But as I have the MP, and AM on my side as well as the ESC I stand a better chance - and as long as there is a chance of saving these 267 lives (or even 1 of them per year) Im going to keep going.

If the AM and MP give up then I will have to really rethink the whole situation - but at the moment they see what I am getting at and the principal behind it

 

[ian.goddard57]

I totally agree with this. Definitely save lives. Tried to get in on face book but I cant log in with no facebook account. Not much of a techno whiz.

 

[Spazz]

create a facebook account - lol

 

[spark 68]

The RCD question is not in dispute, I agree they save lives.

I did some contract work for a LA, and they insisted that all sockets had to be RCD protected, and earthing and bonding brought up to scratch, although they stopped short of a full blown (pardon the pun) 17th ed upgrade, as the housing stock was due a full rewire and modernisation a year or two down the line.
This is what I meant about over and above BS7671, as technically they did not have to (the regs not applying retrospectively).

In one area, they (the council) ordered all private landlords to get a PIR (as it was then) done and again sockets to be RCD'd, bonding and earthing up to scratch within a six month timeframe, or they (the council) would carry out (sub-contract) the PIR at a cost of £500, and then force them to make good at additional cost to the landlord.

Iam not sure what legal stick they used to beat the landlords with (maybe withdrawing housing benefits ?), but this was just in one area.
I should point out this was a council regeneration (run down) area, ear-marked for improvement and threats of compulsory purchase on long standing derelict/empty properties etc., so there is some legislation already there, it would appear.

Also I did some work for a letting agent, much the same story as above, and they said it was down to their insurance broker, (maybe a higher premium if not done ?).

This may be the key here, insurance companies.

As I say, I was not privvy to what was threatened, or what was used to 'persuade' these landlords (both social and private) to carry out this work, but as you say they did not do this off of their own back.

My only concern stated in my previous post, is badly thought out/implemented 'knee jerk' policies, which add more red-tape and hoops to jump through for the legitimate traders (usually at our cost), while the unregulated cowboys will still undercut us, SNAFU.

Spark 68: it is not that the concepts are a bad thing per se, it is just once the Government get involved, you just know they will balls it up, or balls up the implementation of it, which usually results in the legitimate trader being penalised, or have additional costs and paperwork heaped on us while the 'rogue element' will just carry on regardless.

 

[Dave 85]

How many landlords actually do this?


Fully agree - this is what making it law will force them to do it


This is recommended not law - This is what ESC are trying to do, and what will come part of the RCD becoming law as well


10 years for a rented property - they are still domestic (as far as NAPIT are concerned) - 5 years for commercial


Insurance companies will require it or they wont cover them - same with agents
We have backing from agents and insurance companies saying if it is law they can request these as a minimum - no insurance no rental
Yes we will still get rental properties with no insurance but these are far between


All we are looking for is to save people's lives nothing more!
If we save 1 life then is it not worth it?

Although I rather agree that mandatory RCD's in rented properties would be no bad thing, it is after all a one off expense that shouldnt damage landords wallets too badly, I disagree about annual inspections. Absolute waste of time and money IMO. Why in the name of god would a tenant go and disconnect an earth bond that clearly states SAFETY ELECTRICAL CONNECTION DO NOT REMOVE on it, just because 'they dont know what it does'. Nonsense, wouldn't happen.

The chances of a small house with say six low loaded circuits and complete RCD protection suddenly becoming fatally dangerous every year are virtually none.

And your last statement: If we save 1 life then is it not worth it?
To be frank I'm afraid its this kind of attitude that has helped get the UK economy in the sorry state that its in.
The idea that to save one (probably not too bright) person in 60 million from accidental death ever, is worth literaly infinite amounts of money is just ludicrous. Personally i'd rather live in a country where my chances of accidental death are slightly higher but we still have an economy worth a damn. This is one of the many reasons the UK cant manufacture anything anymore, its just not cost effective with all the ridiculous H&S.

Evolution got us where we are today. Fatal accidents are what sorts the wheat from the chaff, why reverse it?

 

[Spazz]

Hi all, I have been off for the last 2 days due to work - Dave glad you agree with me on the RCD point.

With the comment of EICRs annually this is not me fighting this - this is the ESC!

When you say you doubt that a tenant is going to disconnect the earth cable when it is clearly marked SAFETY ELECTRICAL CONNECTION DO NOT REMOVE - dont over estimate these tenants!

I did an EICR on a property that I did a new CU change on only 2 weeks ago and the bloody tenant had gone off and disconnected the earth bonding off the gas supply where it came into the house. I only put a new bonding clamp on when I did the CU change 2 weeks ago as the clamp was not in the best condition and didn't have any labels on!

Tenants excuse was I didn't like the look of the label


its like I went to a property the other month on an emergency call out as the electric went off - opened the CU (old solid wire fuses) and the unit had caught fire - pulled out the fuse to fine that someone had bridged the shower fuse with 6mm cable as they ran out of 32A fuse cable - PRAT!!

So saying that these tenants are not going to do stupid thing is a laugh!

When I said if we save 1 life is it not worth it? - I was actually meaning that ain't 1 life worth saving - yes in theory we would be aiming to save at least half of the people killed per year!
Sorry if we save 1 life I personally think we are gaining something! Yes we need to work harder to save the others but come one!

You say the UK economy in the sorry state that its in!

Sorry the UK economy is in this state because noone is spending money and the government we have in place dont know the difference between the AR$E and the Head and not mentioning the Press - just look at the last so called fuel strike we where going to have! The pumps ran dry because every hour the bloody press where saying that this one was going to be worse then that last! same as the recession! We are not in as bad as they say! If they shut up about it for few days then maybe this country could recover with the rich spending money and then maybe the small businesses could actually start trading again instead of closing down!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

In the year before the introduction of Part P, there were ten fatalities due to home accidents in Great Britain caused by use or misuse of electrical equipment and electrical installations.
You are stating that some two years after the introduction of Part P the number has increased by more than 2000%.
I think either your figures are incorrect, or you have tipped your lance at the wrong windmill.