Do you not feel that the term Electrical Trainee is derogatory

[Meggerman]

Okay, here's how it's going to work.

When a thread descends into handbag swinging and general bickering I'm going to go back through the thread and identify the posts that started it and the posts that caused it to escalate. The members responsible for those posts will be dealt with accordingly.

If you feel someone is out of their depth or doing something dangerous you're welcome to say, but, and this is a big 'BUT', keep it civilised and keep it polite. Insinuating you'd 'feel like a dick' if you'd asked this question is not acceptable. Calling them an 'idiot' is not acceptable. There's also lots of threads about the deskilling of the industry so keep general discussions about domestic installers or Electrical Trainee's in those threads.

Iamelectric, you need to stop addressing members directly with personal comments. If your 'bait' contributes to an already contentious thread going South then you'll get banned for trolling.

My best advice to one and all is read my signature and follow the advice in it.

Do you not feel that the term Electrical Trainee is derogatory?

 

[Silly Sausage]

Re: Cannot get RCD test to work?

Do you not feel that the term Electrical Trainee is derogatory?

It's a term that has been used in a Parliamentary Select Committee debate, so, you could argue it's quite acceptable.

 

[Marvo]

Re: Cannot get RCD test to work?

Do you not feel that the term Electrical Trainee is derogatory?

Not being a part of the UK electrical industry, in fact not being anywhere near the UK even, the term has very little meaning to me but it does seem to be one that's in wide usage and seems to be fairly accepted as far as I've seen. You are the first member to raise this question as far as I know.

Please don't pursue a debate about it in this thread for two reasons, firstly I'd rather people took notice of the actual message in my warning rather than getting sidetracked by the syntax or terminology, secondly it's off-topic in this thread. If you feel it warrants discussion please start a new thread in Chit-Chat.

 

[NickD]

Re: Cannot get RCD test to work?

Do you not feel that the term Electrical Trainee is derogatory?

I think it's unfortunate that it labels everyone who's done the short-route-to-full-scope-Part-P type courses with the same brush. I think there are probably many Electrical Trainee's who do a good job working competently within the scope of their competence, and others who don't even have any competence to work within. Just as I'm sure there are both excellent and completely useless time served electricians. Just because you've got twenty years on the insulated screwdrivers man and boy, doesn't mean you've been holding the right end. ;-)

(Sorry Marvo, only just saw the tail end of your last post, apologies.)

 

[Marvo]

Off topic posts from another thread moved here.

I can see that others may be itching to have input so I've made this into a thread of it's own.

Keep it civil and keep it tidy please.

 

[Sintra]

Do you not feel that the term Electrical Trainee is derogatory?

How would you categorise someone who has done one of these 5 week courses?

 

[Octopus]

This thread needs to be deleted before it becomes a nightmare for the mods!

 

[trev]

So what other terms would you consider derogatory? In the early part of my career the short course route took 2 years, these people were referred to as diluteys.
As Nick says above, I know of many really good people who have followed the Electrical Trainee route and realised they were out of their depth who then made suure they went out and got the knowledge they needed before letting themselves loose on unsuspecting members of the public. I hold no grudge against these people.
The ones I object to are the ones who "graduate" from these courses and then come on here asking the simplest of questions but still considering themselves to be the font of all electrical knowledge. I'll mention no names but one of these was partly responsible for my prolonged holiday from the forum.
Even then, I hold these people only partly responsible. They have been sold a lie by the very organisations who are supposed to be upholding standards within the trade and deemed competent solely by opening their bank accounts to these charlatans

 

[Badged01]

Having never done one of these course Im not to sure if its derogatory or not!

You could put a positive spin on it and say its quite complimentary. You did a 5 week course and learnt so much you are wonderful ..... all the rest of us took years to get the same level of knowledge!

 

[dazza1981]

so what other terms would you consider derogatory? In the early part of my career the short course route took 2 years, these people were referred to as diluteys.
As nick says above, i know of many really good people who have followed the Electrical Trainee route and realised they were out of their depth who then made suure they went out and got the knowledge they needed before letting themselves loose on unsuspecting members of the public. I hold no grudge against these people.
The ones i object to are the ones who "graduate" from these courses and then come on here asking the simplest of questions but still considering themselves to be the font of all electrical knowledge. I'll mention no names but one of these was partly responsible for my prolonged holiday from the forum.
Even then, i hold these people only partly responsible. They have been sold a lie by the very organisations who are supposed to be upholding standards within the trade and deemed competent solely by opening their bank accounts to these charlatans

enough said !!!!!

 

[Silly Sausage]

Having never done one of these course Im not to sure if its derogatory or not!

You could put a positive spin on it and say its quite complimentary. You did a 5 week course and learnt so much you are wonderful ..... all the rest of us took years to get the same level of knowledge!

You're one of those glass half full types! :smilielol5:

 

[NDG Elecs]

How would you categorise someone who has done one of these 5 week courses?

Inexperienced....probably!

I am fairly new to the industry, only do domestic and light commercial stuff.... I initially approached college 10 years back expecting I could do a 'short course' and bingo, away I go... I ended up doing full 3yr 2330 and am I glad. I completely and overwhelmingly utterly under-estimated the knowledge and experience required to be a decent electrician. I still consider myself to know not a lot about electrics.

In fairness to some of the so called Electrical Trainee, many are probably misled into thinking it's a doddle by the short course providers.. and many of the lads/ladies will have families to support etc. So need to pay the bills. The Electrical Trainee's have been allowed to occur due to other forces at work, namely training providers and the schemes that accept them.

EDIT: Just read Trevs post.....I was not plagiarising, honest!

 

[NickD]

The way I look at it, sort of, is calling a Electrical Trainee a crap electrician is like calling a licensed conveyancer a crap solicitor or a highways patrol officer a crap policeman.

 

[NDG Elecs]

crap electrician...aint they normally the ex-council bashers!!

Disclaimer: Mirth!

 

[Adam W]

The way I look at it, sort of, is calling a Electrical Trainee a crap electrician is like calling a licensed conveyancer a crap solicitor or a highways patrol officer a crap policeman.

Probably a good job nobody's saying that then.
Using your examples, calling a Electrical Trainee an electrician would be like calling a PCSO a policeman, a legal secretary a solicitor or a GP's receptionist a nurse.

 

[NickD]

Using your examples, calling a Electrical Trainee an electrician would be like calling a PCSO a policeman, a legal secretary a solicitor or a GP's receptionist a nurse.

Yes, which is why I think the term domestic installer has a place. If one says the term doesn't exist then all you're left with is "electrician" and then people who feel they've spent a decade or two earning that title get narky about it being applied to someone who's spent a lot less time training. What I will say is that I think someone going in for the short courses with essentially no electrical knowledge is a recipe for disaster, probably.

 

[Rockingit]

You buy (literally) into a FIVE WEEK course, and feel WONDERful when you 'graduate'. Where's the poor etymology in that? Perfectly acceptable descriptor as far as I'm concerned.

 

[pepparz]

of course its derogatory, its a sarcastic term.

 

[Badged01]

I would hope that most people on the site, whichever route they have taken to get to where they are, are fairly thick skinned and able to handle some 'light' ribbing and stick!

 

[R G]

I would treat the term as a compliment , because they did it all in 5 weeks ,,, Lol,,,

 

[brman]

Personally I think the term should be banned. Not only because it is derogatory but because it doesn't mean anything!

Like others have said, whether you have done 5 weeks, 3 years or 20 years training doesn't mean you actually know what you are doing. I think I've said it before but one of the best engineers (and I mean engineer, not electrician or technician) I have ever employed had very limited training in the subject. Compared with one of the worst who had a doctorate.........

But regardless of the "if you haven't done a full apprenticeship you shouldn't be calling yourself an electrician" view the only reason the term Electrical Trainee is used is to be deregatory so if Marvo wants to stop handbag swinging and personal insults then ban the term!

 

[pepparz]

I think the term is only used by people who are jealous as Electrical Trainee have learnt in 5 weeks what others take 20 years to do

 

[NickD]

You buy (literally) into a FIVE WEEK course, and feel WONDERful when you 'graduate'. Where's the poor etymology in that? Perfectly acceptable descriptor as far as I'm concerned.

Last time I saw that argument being used was in attempting to justify the use of a four letter abbreviation of 'Pakistani'.

 

[Darkwood]

I think the term is only used by people who are jealous as Electrical Trainee have learnt in 5 weeks what others take 20 years to do

They don't effect my sector of industry but they have had a knock on effect of saturation of the domestic market meaning we now have actual experienced 4yr college taught sparkies sticking there noses into industrial installs when they clearly have no experience and are not competent to do so.

5week courses came out for those in similar sectors of the industry thus having electrical background and they wanted to transfer to been an Electricians .. due to a total abuse and mis-selling of the courses purely for profit we fine we have a flood of ill prepared and not competent 'Electricians' or DI's that ask the most basic of questions showing the true nature of the value of these courses.

So how can anyone even think that a 4yr course can be compressed into 5weeks and the result been a ready to go Electrician is a wonder to me - hence Electrical Trainee ...yes its derogative and on purpose to send a message that the short cut you want to or have taken holds little respect in the industry.

 

[NickD]

They don't effect my sector of industry but they have had a knock on effect of saturation of the domestic market meaning we now have actual experienced 4yr college taught sparkies sticking there noses into industrial installs when they clearly have no experience and are not competent to do so.

5week courses came out for those in similar sectors of the industry thus having electrical background and they wanted to transfer to been an Electricians .. due to a total abuse and mis-selling of the courses purely for profit we fine we have a flood of ill prepared and not competent 'Electricians' or DI's that ask the most basic of questions showing the true nature of the value of these courses.

So how can anyone even think that a 4yr course can be compressed into 5weeks and the result been a ready to go Electrician is a wonder to me - hence Electrical Trainee ...yes its derogative and on purpose to send a message that the short cut you want to or have taken holds little respect in the industry.

But you've identified two sets of people who do the short courses - those for whom it was arguably intended and are well suited, and those who shouldn't be allowed near it. The Electrical Trainee term tars both those sets of people with the same brush and effectively labels them both as Numpty With An MFT.

 

[pepparz]

Yes I agree darkwood. When I first saw these courses advertised I was shocked, it had taken me over 4 years of college and work experience to get the c&g certificates, how can someone achieve this in 5 weeks.

 

[Fox]

I think the term is only used by people who are jealous as Electrical Trainee have learnt in 5 weeks what others take 20 years to do

And then pop onto an internet forum to post a query as to why their £40 multimeter doesn't carry out an RCD test...

 

[Meggerman]

Yes I agree darkwood. When I first saw these courses advertised I was shocked, it had taken me over 4 years of college and work experience to get the c&g certificates, how can someone achieve this in 5 weeks.

I look at it more like an appetiser, with an NVQ3 for main course and a 2391 for dessert

 

[pepparz]

An NVQ isn't worth jack ****

 

[Meggerman]

an nvq isn't worth jack ****

nvq3 = jib gold card

 

[NickD]

Yes I agree darkwood. When I first saw these courses advertised I was shocked, it had taken me over 4 years of college and work experience to get the c&g certificates, how can someone achieve this in 5 weeks.

But what you don't know is what a given individual's background and training is from before the course. Which as I say is why I think it's unfair to tar everyone who takes this route with the Electrical Trainee brush.

 

[NickD]

nvq3 = jib gold card

So you could buy trainers cheap until they went outof business, big deal. ;-)

 

[Meggerman]

Also I think the 2-3 year to 5 week comparison is flawed. those of you did CG2330 on evening college courses only did one evening a week (4 hours) and at least 6 weeks you don't go. So 46 x 0.5 days = 23 days a year (4.6 weeks). So a 2 year course would be less than 10 weeks at college. Not such a big gap now is it.

 

[NickD]

Also I think the 2-3 year to 5 week comparison is flawed. those of you did CG2330 on evening college courses only did one evening a week (4 hours) and at least 6 weeks you don't go. So 46 x 0.5 days = 23 days a year (4.6 weeks). So a 2 year course would be less than 10 weeks at college. Not such a big gap now is it.

Yeah but don't forget those important hours upon hours of apprenticeship, learning how to try to pull the girls in Admin and getting sent to Stores for a long stand and getting hung from the forklift naked and covered in Swarega.

 

[pepparz]

But what you don't know is what a given individual's background and training is from before the course. Which as I say is why I think it's unfair to tar everyone who takes this route with the Electrical Trainee brush.

So what's the title of someone who is 5weeks from been an electrician
And do the courses differ depending on experience?

 

[Badged01]

... and getting sent to Stores for a long stand ...

I also got a tub of elbow grease and some tartan paint .....

 

[Meggerman]

Pepparz, that would be someone who has nearly completed NVQ3

 

[Darkwood]

But you've identified two sets of people who do the short courses - those for whom it was arguably intended and are well suited, and those who shouldn't be allowed near it. The Electrical Trainee term tars both those sets of people with the same brush and effectively labels them both as Numpty With An MFT.

If they have a background prior to taking the course solely as a transition into the industry then they don't ask the basic stupid questions and don't get accused of been a Electrical Trainee ..there's no wonder about how they were just utilising the course to dot the I's and cross the T's.... I don't attribute the Term 5 week wonder to such a person, I pin it on those with no background whatsoever who take the course then ask the most basic of questions to which make one cringe...these are what we call Electrical Trainee... just because they have taken the 5 week course does not mean the wonder tag is attached to them ... that would be a blanket tag which I don't do...I can't speak for others though.

 

[NickD]

And do the courses differ depending on experience?

Only if you have a good tutor with the flexibility and the course numbers to vary the content in the limited way you can within a few weeks. Which is the problem. You can't get someone with an Electrical Engineering degree and a pastry chef up to the same level of competence in five weeks.

 

[NickD]

I also got a tub of elbow grease and some tartan paint .....

My favourite was a new bubble for the spirit level.