ECA and ESC announce major partnership

[NICEIC ENGINEER]

As announced yesterday the ECA and ESC have formed a new partnership for the good of the industry.

From April next year the NICEIC and ELECSA brands will be operated by a new venture called Certsure giving the industry a stronger voice to government and major stakeholders.

The move will bring many benefits to NICEIC and ELECSA registrants, the first of which is the creation of www.electricalsafetyregister.com a definitive searchable database of more than 30 000 registered electricians.

As part of our policy to be open and informative about the merger we have set up this thread for anyone to ask any questions or queries they might have.

A member of the NICEIC team will monitor the site at various points over the next week and provide answers to any questions you might have about the move.

We want you to get involved and look forward to hearing from you.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Now there is a brave brave man

 

[kingeri]

Will Elecsa and the NIC continue to exist as separate brands?

 

[NICEIC ENGINEER]

Yes the NICEIC and ELECSA brands will still contiune to operate separately as normal.

 

[Steve_P]

I got that yesterday - and a new van sticker. I'll certainly be watching this thread.

 

[Octopus]

OK. Why didn't Napit and Stroma sign up too?

Napit have their own scheme and then theres the Competent person website too.

All this is likely to do is confuse Joe Public.

 

[badwolf]

As a Napit member why can't I join the electrical safety register? Surely it's all about safety not what provider you belong too?

 

[NICEIC ENGINEER]

The ECA and ESC have been working for nearly two years to form a meaningful partnership and joint governance over NICEIC and ELECSA. TheRegister is just the first benefit for those ELECSA and NICEIC contractors, aswell as ECA members. The Charity has tried in the not too distant past tocreate one register for the promotion of contractors from many schemes, butsome schemes did not want to participate. www.electricalsafetyregister.comwas therefore developed. It costs nothing to NICEIC, ELECSA and ECA members tobe included and is another place for potential customers can find them.

Here is an interview between Professional Electrician (PE)magazine and our chief executive officer Emma Clancy which may explain thingsfurther:

PE: This is a major announcement for theindustry. What exactly is happening?
EC: We’re delighted to announce that the ECA and ESC are creating ajoint venture company, called Certsure, which from Spring 2013 will operate theNICEIC and ELECSA brands as well as ECA assessments. As a symbol of how thepartnership will deliver many benefits to the industry and the general public,ECA and ESC have launched the Electrical Safety Register, which means you canfind ELECSA, NICEIC and ECA registered members in one place. We believethis will be a great benefit to those looking to specify electrical contractingwork. The ECA, ESC and Certsure will work hard to promote our customers totheir customers through the Register.

PE: Why have ECA and ESC partnered like this?
EC: Well, we’ve listened! We’ve listened to our customers, to governmentand to homeowners and specifiers of contracting work. They have all said to usthat the industry is too disparate, there are too many logos and we should beworking together more to promote the industry and the great electricalcontractors who are registered with us.

PE: So what changes for ELECSA and NICEIC customers?
EC: Firstly, NICEIC and ELECSA customers do not need to change theirvans or letterheads, their assessor does not change and they can go to theirusual websites, www.niceic.comand www.elecsa.co.uk. In fact, they need not doanything. What does change is that in addition to their usual NICEIC and ELECSAregistration they will also be automatically added to the Electrical SafetyRegister. We’ve sent every customer a van sticker and there are more on thesecure area of our websites.

The new partnership will directly benefit the industry - we'll be able to putmore money into promoting contractors to commercial customers and the public.Customers will be able to access many new and existing benefits, which we willbegin to communicate over the coming months. We commit to great customerservice taking the best elements of ELECSA and NICEIC. We will listen and befair. We commit to great customer service taking the best elements of ELECSAand NICEIC. We will listen and be fair.


PE: So an ELECSA registrant can’t claim to be NICEIC registeredand vice versa?
EC: No, the schemes are accredited and run in parallel for now. But theycan in addition use the Electrical Safety Register logo. They use theirnormal websites, notify work in the same way and so on. We’ve made this assimple as possible for our customers and simpler for people to find them.

PE: Where are you promoting the Register?
EC: We are writing to specifiers across the UK and those letters havealready gone out. We will be advertising the Register in key magazines, for instanceto Local Authorities and Housing Associations and promoting it to consumers inthe national and local press. We will ensure that the Electrical SafetyRegister becomes the one place everyone can find a great electrician.

PE: Will other scheme operators have their contractors listedon there?
EC: To start with it will be ELECSA, NICEIC and ECA customers on theRegister. We hope over time it will grow. Any organisation wishing to joinwould need to show a demonstrable support for the other organisations involvedand commit to meeting a consistently high standard. I think customers ofELECSA, NICEIC and ECA as well as homeowners and specifiers would want to bereassured that high standards of assessments are met.

PE: Is this all because of what’s happening to Part P?
EC: No. As I sit and talk to you, nothing has been announced by CLG onPart P. The Electrical Safety Register isn’t just for domestic installers,there are NICEIC Approved Contractors and ECA members on there too. Part P ispart of the Building Regulations and it’s referenced on the site forhouseholders to understand.

PE: Is this in anyway anti-competitive?
EC: No. Choice is still out there for the contractor, there is somethinglike six other competent person scheme providers. My promise is that we willlisten and be fair as an organisation and that the best of NICEIC and ELECSAwill be brought together so every one of our customers feels valued. Don’tforget, our revenues go towards the benefit of the industry, not forshareholders profits. And our customers can be reassured that we will promotethem to their customers. The Electrical Safety Register brings them togetherwith the backing of the ECA and the ESC. I think that’s where the choice ofscheme is important.

PE: Will you move to make the Register mandatory like the GasSafe Register?
EC: There are several factors as to why this isn’t possible. Firstly youjust have to listen to our customers to realise how tough the economic climateis. Anything that increased costs for contractors wouldn’t be right at thistime. Secondly, there is no appetite at government level to do this and thiswas clear at the recent Select Committee on Part P. Thirdly industry needs tosolve its own problems and stand united on the big issues. This is a new startto get that right, seize the initiative for electrical contractors and promoteour great industry properly

 

[BlueToBits]

Well I'm going to put my head above the parapet. You asked for questions and comments....

.......
EC: We’re delighted to announce that the ECA and ESC are creating ajoint venture company, called Certsure....

What will happen to Acertiva, the company that already owns the NICEIC brand? Has Ascertiva effectively sold the NICEIC to the ECA?

.......
PE: Why have ECA and ESC partnered like this?
EC: Well, we’ve listened! We’ve listened to our customers, to governmentand to homeowners and specifiers of contracting work. They have all said to usthat the industry is too disparate, there are too many logos and we should beworking together more to promote the industry and the great electricalcontractors who are registered with us. ....

So to address these concerns and accusations of the industry being too disparate, it was thought that what everybody wanted was a new level of approval, another new web address and another logo on vans and stationary promoting a partial and fragmented list of available contractors?

.......
The new partnership will directly benefit the industry - we'll be able to putmore money into promoting contractors to commercial customers and the public.Customers will be able to access many new and existing benefits, which we willbegin to communicate over the coming months. We commit to great customerservice taking the best elements of ELECSA and NICEIC. We will listen and befair. We commit to great customer service taking the best elements of ELECSAand NICEIC. We will listen and be fair....

Where will this extra money come from and how much will be budgeted? The general public may not need an electrician for many years, do you expect them to remember a press advert they may have read years earlier? Specifiers already know about our industry approval authorities, The general public are mostly unaware of Part P let alone the scheme providers which authorise an installation company to carry out this work. If the general public are aware, the specifiers will also be aware so surely there is no need to target them, the register needs to be as well known as Gas Safe.

What will there be that requires you to be 'fair'?

.......
PE: So an ELECSA registrant can’t claim to be NICEIC registeredand vice versa?
EC: No, the schemes are accredited and run in parallel for now....

What is the time-scale for this amalgamation? Will there still be a distinction between a NICEIC Approved Contractor and a NICEIC Domestic Installer?

.......
PE: Will other scheme operators have their contractors listedon there?
EC: To start with it will be ELECSA, NICEIC and ECA customers on theRegister. We hope over time it will grow. Any organisation wishing to joinwould need to show a demonstrable support for the other organisations involvedand commit to meeting a consistently high standard. I think customers ofELECSA, NICEIC and ECA as well as homeowners and specifiers would want to bereassured that high standards of assessments are met....

Can we assume then that the ESC/ECA partnership does not believe that NAPIT and other scheme operators do not show support to other organisations, nor commit to consistently high standards?

.......
PE: Is this all because of what’s happening to Part P?
EC: No. As I sit and talk to you, nothing has been announced by CLG onPart P. The Electrical Safety Register isn’t just for domestic installers,there are NICEIC Approved Contractors and ECA members on there too. Part P ispart of the Building Regulations and it’s referenced on the site forhouseholders to understand....

So householders using the new site will also have to refer to the NICEIC or ELECSA site after they have chosen their contractor from the register site? Is this making it easier for our customers who, at the moment only need to visit one site?

.......


PE: Is this in anyway anti-competitive?
EC: No. Choice is still out there for the contractor, ...
...
PE: Will you move to make the Register mandatory like the GasSafe Register?
EC: There are several factors as to why this isn’t possible. Firstly youjust have to listen to our customers to realise how tough the economic climateis. Anything that increased costs for contractors wouldn’t be right at thistime. Secondly, there is no appetite at government level to do this and thiswas clear at the recent Select Committee on Part P. Thirdly industry needs tosolve its own problems and stand united on the big issues.

There is too much choice. I don't want any choice. I would like to see the whole thing simplified to just one mandatory approval authority. Electric Safe. An authority with the sole interest of electrical safety, not trying compete with other authorities or to make profit. This would be cheaper and more efficient and fair for all.

It is the scheme controllers' duty to lobby government and to generate an appetite for electrical safety, with so many providers it is too easy for one to leave this responsibility to another. If the government can't be made to take an interest in electrical safety, what chance have we got with the general public?

The various scheme providers must take some of the blame for many of our industry's problems. They all have their own agenda, rule book and standards. They all put profit before safety, or use safety as an excuse to generate profit. Their main activity is to generate membership income rather than promote electrical safety standards to the general public.

This is potentially a big change in our industry, but it seems to only involve 2 of the 6 or so scheme providers. We are told that we don't need to do anything or make any changes to the way we operate. Is this partnership equal and formed with the sole interest in attempting to clarify the confusion within the approval standards of our industry without financial gain by either partner?

Electrical safety should be mandatory, non profit making, non competitive. It works in the gas industry, it should be the same in the electrical industry.

Apologies for the inconsistent fonts.

 

[Engineer54]

That's a laugh, the Dammed Scam Providers caused most, if not many of the problems in our industry in the first place!!

You talk about electrical safety as being the holy grail in one hand, and with the other hand your actively registering 17 DAY WIZZ KIDS as competent persons enabling them to go into unsuspecting peoples homes to carry out electrical work!! A bit of Double standards at work here!! ...lol!!

There must be an angle where you (the Scam companies) will financially benefit, maybe not now, but in the future. This is the initial ground work, to build this thing up to a recognised level. Then when the time suits you, it will be an increase in fee's, or extra costs to use the logo or whatever!!

 

[Guest55]

.... for the good of the industry.

No waaaaay am i missing the chance to troll out the NIC.
;-)

 

[Octopus]

OK. Why didn't Napit and Stroma sign up too?

Napit have their own scheme and then theres the Competent person website too.

All this is likely to do is confuse Joe Public.

I'll see if our nice man will answer this!!

 

[Kiers1970]

What's that song??? 'Money makes the world go round'

 

[Knobhead]

All this is likely to do is confuse Joe Public.

Be realistic Murdoch, Mr. Joe Public haven't a clue about nor even care about any scam, he's never heard of them.

 

[Octopus]

Be realistic Murdoch, Mr. Joe Public haven't a clue about nor even care about any scam, he's never heard of them.

Precisely my point.

Before Gas Safe there was Corgi and 90% of people recognise them.... but the idiots "in charge" of electrics think they can duplicate and duplicate - they'd all fit in the EU machine nicely.

 

[Knobhead]

Thought they ran the EU, costs a fortune to run but does no useful work.

 

[Guest55]

i'm actually thinking of setting up my own scheme , biffcompetantcowboy.com

i offer FREE van go-faster stripes !!!

 

[Spudnik]

Can we please keep this thread on topic.

Thanks.

 

[lushers]

Absolute sham, completely pointless exercise. What our industry needs like a hole in the head is yet another 'scheme' to confuse customers. It's quite simple: all contractors need to comply with one legally required body; a la heating engineers with gas safe, then there's little, if any confusion. Judging by the way this latest NIC/ELECSA love in has occurred, this isn't going to happen any time soon.... I hope I'm wrong

 

[NICEIC ENGINEER]

Morning all, thanks for the comments. I will try to answeras many as possible.
Is this move just thecreation of another scheme?
No. The merger between ECA and ESC is not another scheme.The NICEIC and ELECSA brands will continue to operate alongside each other.Registrants do not need to change anything. The electricalsafetyregister is asite that combines the best of both brands. It is the definitive, searchabledatabase to find electricians from NICEIC, ELECSA and ECA.
What happens toAscertiva?
The Ascertiva Group will continue to exist. The AscertivaGroup is a global company and will still be serviced by its NQA and Puragenbrands.
Fragmentation of theindustry
Rather than fragment we are bringing together two of thebiggest brands in the industry together to create a stronger voice togovernment, stakeholders, contractors and householders. Theelectricalasafetyregister will become the number one destination for anyonelooking to employ an electrician and will be promoted to customers andspecifiers of electrical work accordingly.
Other schemeoperators
As mentioned previously the new Joint Venture is theculmination of two years hard work to bring some unity to the market. The ESChas tried in recent years to bring all schemes together under one register butsome operators did not want to co operate.
Promotion of Part P
The electricalsafetyregister is about more than Part P – it containsdetails of all registered firms not just domestic installers. However, werecognise that promoting Part P to householders is an important issue and madethis point to government in our recent response to the DCLG consultation.
Domestic Installer,Approved Contractor and Fees.
The NICEIC Domestic Installer Scheme and Approved ContractorScheme are unaffected by this move. They continue to run as normal and the contactdetails for either scheme remain the same.
Fees will also be unaffected. In fact there is a currentsmall difference (around £9) between what NICEIC Domestic Installers pay and thosewith the ELECSA scheme pay, based on Direct Debit payments. We will now ensurethat these are aligned to the lower figure. NICEIC has frozen its fees for four of thelast five years

 

[amberleaf]

NICEIC-ENGINEER .

Welcome to the forum . and taking the time to post .

 

[kingeri]

It just seems unfair that Joe Public will search the database and those folks in NAPIT will not come up on it, suggesting to the public that they are in some way less or even not competent.

 

[BlueToBits]

It just seems unfair that Joe Public will search the database and those folks in NAPIT will not come up on it, suggesting to the public that they are in some way less or even not competent.

Welcome to enlightenment. You have 2 options. You stand your ground and complain to anyone who will listen, or you pay your money to the NICEIC or ECA/ELECSA . Why do you think this partnership was created?

 

[Knobhead]

I’ve no use for schemes being retired, nor did I during my 40years working in the industrial field. So looking from the outside I really can’t see any advantages to any scheme. A national register yes, but this would have to be out of the hands of the mandarins in their ivory towers.

I envisage the various schemes all folding due to political in fighting and the rush to make money from the current crop of unskilled, ill-prepared trades men.

The government has its share of the blame with the introduction of ill thought out regulations which have been corrupted in to money making schemes. Training has gone to the dogs with training providers putting profit first with the blessing of the government.

My once proud trade has gone from a highly respected position in society to be on a par with a back street mechanic.

As for Mr. J Public, he’s never heard of you and basically couldn’t care less. The Electrical Safety Council, which should be a force to be reckoned with, is instead like a voice in the wilderness that no one is listening to.

 

[malcolmsanford]

I’ve no use for schemes being retired, nor did I during my 40years working in the industrial field. So looking from the outside I really can’t see any advantages to any scheme. A national register yes, but this would have to be out of the hands of the mandarins in their ivory towers.

I envisage the various schemes all folding due to political in fighting and the rush to make money from the current crop of unskilled, ill-prepared trades men.

The government has its share of the blame with the introduction of ill thought out regulations which have been corrupted in to money making schemes. Training has gone to the dogs with training providers putting profit first with the blessing of the government.

My once proud trade has gone from a highly respected position in society to be on a par with a back street mechanic.

As for Mr. J Public, he’s never heard of you and basically couldn’t care less. The Electrical Safety Council, which should be a force to be reckoned with, is instead like a voice in the wilderness that no one is listening to.

Tony have you any of those pills going spare, because I do not think anyone here could have penned this better or more succinctly.

I proffered in another thread, that though they are far from perfect the JIB are perhaps the nearest and best suited to carry the mantle for an Electricians Register.

They cover all areas and at least have standards, that are not swayed by the colour your money.

My once proud trade has gone from a highly respected position in society to be on a par with a back street mechanic.

That my friend says it all, a trade destroyed by narrow minded governments who over the years thought that trades were a thing of the past, things like manufacturing, coal, steel, ship building was a dirty word, and that the future was a service driven industry where we would all sell insurance, banking services and work in call centres, if there are any left.

Now it is coming back to haunt them, with a population of 60 odd million and not an handful of tradesmen, in any discipline, you can shake a stick at. Just some poorly trained lads, who through no fault of their own, have been lied to and conned into thinking they are getting trained

 

[RJT_94]

So basicly anyone with Napit and Storma are stuffed, if this takes off and the public see it as like the gas register. Anyone not in will start lossing work as they are not on this register. Yet again fully competent hard working sparks are going to be bent further over the table! why there cant just be a level playing feild and all schemes are in it bafles me.

Hello NICECI ENGINEER, What is going to be done to get other schemes on board and shouldnt it have been done proir to the register being open. Surely it entered someones head that its not going to work and cause confusion with customers without all schemes in!

 

[kingeri]

The register must be open to members of all schemes, otherwise it just sucks big time. I'm actually quite annoyed by this, so much so that I can't formulate an intelligent post at the moment.

 

[Spoon]

The register must be open to members of all schemes, otherwise it just sucks big time. I'm actually quite annoyed by this, so much so that I can't formulate an intelligent post at the moment.

Discrimination springs to mind....

 

[RJT_94]

Just awaiting a response to my email to Napit, if I get oneback that is.

 

[BlueToBits]

So basicly anyone with Napit and Storma are stuffed, if this takes off and the public see it as like the gas register. Anyone not in will start lossing work as they are not on this register. Yet again fully competent hard working sparks are going to be bent further over the table! why there cant just be a level playing feild and all schemes are in it bafles me.

Hello NICECI ENGINEER, What is going to be done to get other schemes on board and shouldnt it have been done proir to the register being open. Surely it entered someones head that its not going to work and cause confusion with customers without all schemes in!

He answered this here.

...Other schemeoperators
As mentioned previously the new Joint Venture is theculmination of two years hard work to bring some unity to the market. The ESChas tried in recent years to bring all schemes together under one register butsome operators did not want to co operate.
...

You can read what you like into the word "cooperate" but I know what I think.
The main thing here is 'IF it takes off..'. Previous track records of publicising electrical scheme operators have fallen very short of making any electrical scheme a household name. So NAPIT and STORMA (whoever they are) are not necessarily stuffed. This partnership is obviously formed to encourage NAPIT and STORMA members into joinig NICEIC or ELECSA. It may not be such a bad thing to do. The joining and assessment criteria and fees must be much the same. Go with the one you think overall offers the best benefits to you. Loyalty to one scheme or another is pretty much irrelevant.

 

[RJT_94]

Thanks BluetoBits i agree very much with what you say about it not being such a bad thing and any steps towards having 1 body, name, logo what ever a customer can look for with an electrician much like gas safe is a good thing. I just hope a way can befound for it to be fully reputable and not half way their, if it is going to be run on the basis of being with a scheme then all schemes will need to be involved. for this to work properly and not cause confusion.

 

[Guest111]

Complete and utter waste of time,with perhaps the potential for a nice earner for the parties who set it up.What is needed is a national register similar to the one used by doctors,the membership of which is mandatory to work and can be viewed by the public.The BMA listing gives you the doctors name,when they qualified,when they registered,what extra training they have received and if they have chosen to specialise in any particular field.Finally and most importantly it contains details of any complaints made against the doctor and what the outcome was.Also if there is a serious problem the doctor can be removed from the list and is not allowed to practice until they have been retrained on the problem areas or in severe cases not reinstated to the list at all.That is not too hard a system to implement and would protect the people who the organisers of these schemes claim to want to protect,namely joe public.
One register for one trade,not devisive, would have powers to weed out cowboys and would be simple for the public.end of

 

[Octopus]

OK. Why didn't Napit and Stroma sign up too?

Napit have their own scheme and then theres the Competent person website too.

All this is likely to do is confuse Joe Public.

3rd time lucky.

If the NICEIC man can't answer this will Dan and the Mods be forced to add a new catagory to the membership type, namely POLITICIAN. i.e. someone who never answers direct questions.

 

[MDJ]

The Trouble is to make a real electric safe register Like gas safe, B&Q, Screwfix, Tesco, Sainsbury's and Homebase etc will have to stop all non electricians buying stock at their stores, they all sell something which could be installed by non competent persons, I can just imagine the government allowing the freeze on sale of all electrical goods at the time of recession where businesses can't make so much money and pay tax haha, it will never happen, changing the subject slightly, the trouble is the amount of bull we keep getting regarding part pee and the now safe scheme, because all the scammers have their own system and it is un-united the farce will continue, I don't know what the answer will be long term, but as long as they allow anyone in the street to gain a part p certification for a fortnights course then we are doomed, rather than worry about the scammers joining forces to create "so called safe schemes" we need to worry about part p 2 week courses, I know there are several guys on here who have done the 5 week courses and do their best to do a professional Job, I respect them for coming on here and getting involved and trying to improve, the answer IMO is to have MOTs for sparks like some of the scammers have now where they inspect annually, they should insist part p registered guys are tested very closely, regardless of experience every 12 months by showing 5 completed jobs picked at random and at the time of inspection, a inspection of their testing ability has to be proved by testing their Jobs in front of the engineer, also remove the city councils part p inspectors who have done short courses and ensure a minimum 10 years experience in the trade is proven before an examiner can be employed, if the examiners are experienced they will ensure the quality improves, I had some fool from my city council who wasn't a spark telling me he was a part p inspector and wanted a part p certificate for a light in a loft conversion, although I have been in the trade 30 years and he was stacking shelves in Tesco 2 weeks before due to the course he was inspecting my work, now the short courses and inspectors need to be looked at more closely and we may have a chance to get to the one off elec register, but all said and done, I just can never imagine it being illegal to change a socket or light switch in a house by an ordinary Joe.

 

[Guest111]

MDJ if you go into any diy store you can buy gas fittings,I think the issue here is one national register for electricians so that there is less confusion and everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet.I agree with what you say about people fitting there own sockets etc,however the same applies to gas.There are always people,who regardless of their level of competency will tackle a job,Gas fittings are not a restricted sale item despite gas safe,a call into any plumbers merchant will enable anyone to buy a gas fitting providing they know what they are asking for.I think we all need to be carefull we dont lose our way on this one,its a bit like the drug laws isnt it?we all know its illegal to snort cocaine but loads of people still do it!What is needed is one register with everyone on it and powers to deal with cowboys,after all if you were registered with say elecsa and got thrown off for dodgy work,whats to stop you signing up with another scheme provider that isn,t affiliated to the one you were thrown off?See my point one register and if you get thrown off its game over,bye bye cowboy.

 

[NICEIC ENGINEER]

In response to Murdoch an answer is posted earlier in the thread.

The ESC has tried in the not too distant past to create one register for the promotion of contractors from many schemes, but some schemes did not want to participate. www.electricalsafetyregister.com was therefore developed for NICEIC, ELECSA and ECA registrants.

The ECA and ESC havebeen working for nearly two years to form a meaningful partnership and jointgovernance over NICEIC and ELECSA. The register is just the first benefit forthose ELECSA and NICEIC contractors, as well as ECA members.

 

[MDJ]

I would love to see one register, but it just cannot happen, gas fittings cost a few pence for a coupler or a couple of quid for a length of pipe the diy stores can charge 50-200 for a light fitting and so many people change their own lights the money raised is warming the chancellors hands IMO, I just can't ever see government allowing one register for skilled persons, they don't think electricity is dangerous, after all it is only 3 wires.

 

[MDJ]

One question everyone then, why haven't the government created one register as we would all like to see?

 

[Spoon]

One question everyone then, why haven't the government created one register as we would all like to see?

Because that would be sensible and the scheme main people will be up in arms as they will lose out on lots of money.
Does that sound too negative

 

[MDJ]

Because that would be sensible and the scheme main people will be up in arms as they will lose out on lots of money.
Does that sound too negative

No Not at all, that makes sence, money is the issue I'm sure.

 

[Spoon]

The thing is MDJ, I dont trust things like this. The original idea is good, but then when you look at it its all about money. They are hoping that this will really take off and all the other people in other schemes will have to join theirs. Money!!!!
I like Phil D's idea in post 32. There is no other way round this. Even when you look at the electricalsafetyregister.com site it smacks of politics. Why cant it be honest to joe public and state that this site only has 2 scheme providers listed and that that there are other people in different schemes who are competent... Money....

 

[MDJ]

Absolutely, you said what I was thinking but couldn't put into words, this is why there will never be one scheme, money is the deal here, and who wins long term?

 

[Octopus]

In response to Murdoch an answer is posted earlier in the thread.

The ESC has tried in the not too distant past to create one register for the promotion of contractors from many schemes, but some schemes did not want to participate. www.electricalsafetyregister.com was therefore developed for NICEIC, ELECSA and ECA registrants.

The ECA and ESC havebeen working for nearly two years to form a meaningful partnership and jointgovernance over NICEIC and ELECSA. The register is just the first benefit forthose ELECSA and NICEIC contractors, as well as ECA members.

Buried in a heap of other Q & A.

Seriously not impressed. There should be one register ONLY and before you say it won't cost me anything, I bet it will be funded by the ECA, Elecsa and NICEIC so it WILL cost the members.

Fees should be going down to match Stroma!

 

[Guest111]

Mike and Murdoch you are right,while you have to pay a yearly fee to be registered with the gmc if you are a doctor,there is only one register so everyone is on a level playing field.if you look at any other group of professionals they only have one governing body,eg RCVS for vets FRICS for accountants to name only 2,this begs the question if it can be done for everyone else why not us,simple money!At the end of the day the government could turn around and say right as of 1st jan any electrician wanting to work must prove their qualifications and be registered with the national register of electricians.Anyone not registered would not be able to work and it would be illegal for them to charge for any work they do.If people wanted to be a member of any other scheme then that would be up to them,however they must be listed on the national register.Sadly however I only forsee this happening if there is an incident involving an mp,s family and it later turns out that the electrician involved wasn,t really an electrician.

 

[Guest111]

It just seems unfair that Joe Public will search the database and those folks in NAPIT will not come up on it, suggesting to the public that they are in some way less or even not competent.

EXACTLY what i,ve been saying all along!for many years there was only the Ni and then other groups started up,that should have been prevented and ONE national register created,seems theres a lot of us on here can see this so why cant the scheme providers? Simple,they go on about the greater good yes for their wallets,not the poor sods who actually work at the ground level i,e the electricians

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It just seems unfair that Joe Public will search the database and those folks in NAPIT will not come up on it, suggesting to the public that they are in some way less or even not competent.

EXACTLY what i,ve been saying all along!for many years there was only the Ni and then other groups started up,that should have been prevented and ONE national register created,seems theres a lot of us on here can see this so why cant the scheme providers? Simple,they go on about the greater good yes for their wallets,not the poor sods who actually work at the ground level i,e the electricians

 

[MDJ]

Fees should be going down to match Stroma!

No actually the list should be free to sparks who can prove they have the qualifications by showing their certificates obtained whilst training on a credible course at college, then when they notify works a small cost should be incurred for admin costs when they notify building control, why pay hundreds a year to be on a list after a 5 year apprenticship which costs thousands of hard earn pounds, not only that but having several scammers policing us is just making money for them which in reality is not necassary, we are asking a body to confirm we are competant after we have served our time paying for the original apprentiship, a 12 month MOT would be adequate once registration is assured IMO to make sure we are not slipping in standards, but to get on the list and to be able to get the 12 month MOT a 2 week course should not be adequate and further training and experience obtained by the applicant and not assured due to money paid out, 17 days is a total joke regarding part pee and I for one think the whole thing should be removed at once and a proper scheme set up without a dozen scammers fighting for money which shouldn't have to be paid out to skilled time served tradesmen, as mentioned dozens of times before by dozens of sparks money is what part pee is all about. now as to the guys who have done DI courses over 2-3 years I applaud you for trying to get there via bonafide courses at college and have no problem with you if you pass the 12 monthly MOT which is by engineers who should have a minimun 10 years experience in the trade and not be tesco shelf stackers, the problem I and many have if the 17 day course, this should be abandoned immediately for the safety of the consumer.

 

[brman]

Tony have you any of those pills going spare, because I do not think anyone here could have penned this better or more succinctly.

I proffered in another thread, that though they are far from perfect the JIB are perhaps the nearest and best suited to carry the mantle for an Electricians Register.

They cover all areas and at least have standards, that are not swayed by the colour your money.

My once proud trade has gone from a highly respected position in society to be on a par with a back street mechanic.

That my friend says it all, a trade destroyed by narrow minded governments who over the years thought that trades were a thing of the past, things like manufacturing, coal, steel, ship building was a dirty word, and that the future was a service driven industry where we would all sell insurance, banking services and work in call centres, if there are any left.

Now it is coming back to haunt them, with a population of 60 odd million and not an handful of tradesmen, in any discipline, you can shake a stick at. Just some poorly trained lads, who through no fault of their own, have been lied to and conned into thinking they are getting trained

While I have some sympathy for your views I am not at all convinced the facts support this. I see poor, if not dangerous, workmanship everyday and it seems to me that there is just as much that is 20 to 30 years old compared to recent.
Maybe others experiences are different......

But back to the subject of the thread. I can see why this register could be good but it has a way to go.
1) get everyone on board, including NAPIT. I don't believe blackmailing them with a "join us or you will get marginalised" is the best approach though.
2) Properly publicise it! Get it in national papers, on the news, leaflets in B&Q etc etc. Without that it is all for nothing.
3) Start policing the part P schemes! I don't care how people get training or on schemes in the 1st place but I do care a lot that they can then do poor or dangerous work and nothing is apparently done about it. There are regular threads on here about substandard work or inspection reports with hard evidence they are done by registered "electricians" and nothing is done about it by the scheme involved.

I'd particularly like feedback on that last point because without it the rest is meaningless!

 

[MDJ]

I'd particularly like feedback on that last point because without it the rest is meaningless!

I'd like to see 12 month MOTs for sparks tested by engineers with at least 10 years experience in the trade and who are to date with regs and ammendments myself. the criteria can be discussed regarding the MOTs at any time IMO

 

[Des 56]

Mr Niceic engineer

Your organisation has over the last 10 years become an absolute disgrace to the electrical industry and an executioners hatchet to the standards that were once the pride that was the trade of electrician

I have been an electrician for nigh on 50 years and you destroyed, in the name of profit,the trade I loved


One part of your post suggested that other future participants would have to meet the standards set by the Niceic "Are you actually serious with that comment",because it borders on being hysterically funny



Qualifying supervisors have been used by yourselves in the electrical industry
It could be justifeid on larger projects

You created the term Domestic installer and used the QS system in the domestic sector
The consequences of that decision (aside from the argument about lowering the standards of an electrican)is that enterprises working in the Domestic sector have one qualified person and myriads of Joe bloggs personel who may never have held a screwdriver in their paws

Domestic Eicrs are often, if not usually, carried out by incompetent employees with the QS oversigning from the office ( I know and you know that supervision is not on site supervision.its office based and with your blessing)therefore excluding well trained electricans from competeing against low skilled low paid labourers doing electricians tasks

This farce actually destroys any hope of individual competence by all in the industry

Here is my question if you have the courage to answer it

Will you support individual competence and at a level agreed with the other schemes and do away with the Qualifying supervisor system ?

 

[brman]

There is nothing wrong with someone inexperienced or unqualified doing work. Just as long as he is properly supervised by a QS. Same in industry as it is in domestic! Lets face it, how do you get experience without doing it for real? How do you employ a lad if you are not allowed to let him work on site?

I also think the situation is already very clear. If a QS signs off some work then he is signing to say he has supervised the work, seen it at all stages and can guarantee its quality and he can't do that from an office.

Again, it is about policing. No scheme will work if you just assume that everything will be fine if you have the right bit of paper. I believe this is the biggest problem with the schemes at present.