EF's referendum on the EU.

[MDJ]

The rigs belong to BP and Norway I believe,as do all the equipment and the billions invested in the whole set up, however it is scottish soil (so to speak haha), so if Scotland do decide to break up the UK then things could get nasty between all parties concerned, Legally I think Scotland will have a good point about being lawful in owning whats left of the wells as the rigs are just inside their waters and not Norways, However I'm more concerned about all our futures if we part, Much more important than the remaining oil there together we are stronger for sure IMO, And lets not forget, all BP would need to do is stick up another well in English waters and use a special drill to get to the same fields from the new position, perhaps a battle of the Seas may happen Come on Scotland stay in the UK :17:

 

[Darkwood]

.....................

Re read grant, im fully supportive of your right to decide what your future is, i even said i believe its in yours and our interest not to go independent.
I state im British and proud as a response to Des's delution of Empire quote just to say that because you stand by you country and are patriotic dosn't mean you are walking around with blinkers on as il leave that tag to EDL .


Ive got a few close friends who are Scottish and we often have a jovial banter of our differences but end of the day i class them as close friends because they are good people and not based on where they are from..... although il mention they having never got a round in


Bugger you edited it Grant but not before i read it lol but doubt it would have got you a warning although i did struggle to understand why you thought that.

 

[Des 56]

It's a shame Grant removed whatever it was he posted
If you have an opinion,whatever it may be, it reinforces any democracy by being able to take advantage of making that opinion known,so thats a pity



Now in the spirit of open discussion,I take a view on a subject and will defend that view as best I can
I will also say that I never hold rigid views and would change my opinion if need be

The post by veglen is factual,well constructed and there is little to argue about with his conclusion,so i take my hat off to him for that

My defence of his well made points is "USA"

The USA does not suffer the wide gap in economy or living standards because it has fuctioned as one country with one foriegn policy and one national stratedgy with non national decisions made at state level
The EU has been trying for many years to swim against a tide of obstruction to steer towards a simillar type of set up (mainly Gt Britain)

Nationalism in all the countrys especially the UK as hindered and damaged EU aspirations,but the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is still driving the countrys onwards
No country,including the UK, wants to leave the EU.rather lots would love to join,even after all the turmoil of the last few years
Does that not tell you something !

The problems of an inefficient EU were created by the reluctance of politicians and the nationalism of the various peoples to greater and lesser extents to intergrate fully
An intergrated economy can only be successful when the main decisions are made for Europe as a whole,the same as in the USA

Once the blinds are removed from the little Englanders and the rightful,full part taken up at the forefront of EU decision making, the better for everyone

UK plc was a manufacturing giant,the politicians over the last 4 decades,living in their cacoon of Westminister have destroyed what was once a very proud and self producing economy
The country has "Banking" carried out in the city of London.take away that banking and the country is desolute.(we have no manufacturing to speak of)

Now look at other countrys,Germany in particular
A banking crises in Germany does not impact on them to anywhere near what it does here
You could remove most banking activity from Frankfurt and their economy would hardly know it existed

This country,for greed and selfish reasons,mainly by rich political folk,has all its eggs in the financial market
The financial markets do not produce a single cornflake,it has no foundation of gears and ploughs and hammers, it's wealth creation which this country holds so much stock,is born on the backs of taking its share of manufacturing carried out by the other countrys

We need to change the thoughts and the greed and the ways of those who, year after year and decade after decade,hold the power,the power that has strangled the lifeblood out of the country when closing our ability to produce and propagated our reliance on paper wealth

The EU is our lifeline,it is the only future where our degeneration can have a chance of recovery

That recovery requires sacrifice,the sacrifice is the power to make unselfish decisions,to take a part in collective decisions, to put aside national greed in favour of collective increased wealth and stability

The EU has a prosperous future in front of it,
Bankers Britain,because that is all it would ever be, will just continue on its long road of decay

 

[Vegelen]

The USA does not suffer the wide gap in economy or living standards because it has functioned as one country with one foreign policy and one national strategy with non national decisions made at state level.

Yes it does.
There is a very large variance in the economies and living standards of different parts of the United States.
Contrary to what people think, the USA does have lots of poverty, destitution, poor health care provision etc.
It may function as one country but it doesnt always operate efficiently as one.
It is the most heavily indebted nation on earth, that is very far from being a perfect example of economic success.
Parts of the United States have little to no economy, just like parts of Europe.
My point was that if you have different economies, operating at different speeds, 1 unified currency with 1 interest rate wont benefit all areas of the economic zone at the same time.
I like having one currency in europe for travelling, but I can see the negative side effects of everyone operating under the same currency using the same interest rates.
Reality tends to smack one in the mouth in Europe at unexpected times.
Ask a Greek taxi driver in Kefalonia how much a coffee used to cost under the drachma and he will tell you 40p.
Ask how much under the euro and he will tell you a couple of euro.
Since the Euro was introduced prices have risen sharply.
The whole point of the European Union initially was to make a far more efficient, effective unified economic trading zone.
The European Unions interest rates have been set for Europes largest trading economies.
Europes monkeys suffer when the organ grinder plays his tune at the wrong speed.
Some people mistakenly believe that "bigger is always better", that if everyone tethers their legs together with rope, everyone will walk together in a better unified fashion.
Experience has taught me to respect and champion difference.
I love Europe, I love the UK.
But I dont love a bunch of politicians centred in Belgium, imposing lots of unnecessary rules on people, causing lots of long term problems, living in gilded cages, failing to listen to the EU's broad economic electorate.
It is about time these goons leave their plush offices and travel to Spain, Portugal, Greece, Ireland etc and ask people on the ground what is going wrong in the European Union and how it needs to change to improve.
The European Unions parliment has turned into a large bureaucratic turd, that is failing to accommodate the needs of its citizens - only the very foolish would seek to think otherwise.

 

[telectrix]

especially like the bureaucratic turd definition.

 

[grantr37]

Yes it does.
There is a very large variance in the economies and living standards of different parts of the United States.
Contrary to what people think, the USA does have lots of poverty, destitution, poor health care provision etc.
It may function as one country but it doesnt always operate efficiently as one.
It is the most heavily indebted nation on earth, that is very far from being a perfect example of economic success.
Parts of the United States have little to no economy, just like parts of Europe.
My point was that if you have different economies, operating at different speeds, 1 unified currency with 1 interest rate wont benefit all areas of the economic zone at the same time.
I like having one currency in europe for travelling, but I can see the negative side effects of everyone operating under the same currency using the same interest rates.
Reality tends to smack one in the mouth in Europe at unexpected times.
Ask a Greek taxi driver in Kefalonia how much a coffee used to cost under the drachma and he will tell you 40p.
Ask how much under the euro and he will tell you a couple of euro.
Since the Euro was introduced prices have risen sharply.
The whole point of the European Union initially was to make a far more efficient, effective unified economic trading zone.
The European Unions interest rates have been set for Europes largest trading economies.
Europes monkeys suffer when the organ grinder plays his tune at the wrong speed.
Some people mistakenly believe that "bigger is always better", that if everyone tethers their legs together with rope, everyone will walk together in a better unified fashion.
Experience has taught me to respect and champion difference.
I love Europe, I love the UK.
But I dont love a bunch of politicians centred in Belgium, imposing lots of unnecessary rules on people, causing lots of long term problems, living in gilded cages, failing to listen to the EU's broad economic electorate.
It is about time these goons leave their plush offices and travel to Spain, Portugal, Greece, Ireland etc and ask people on the ground what is going wrong in the European Union and how it needs to change to improve.
The European Unions parliment has turned into a large bureaucratic turd, that is failing to accommodate the needs of its citizens - only the very foolish would seek to think otherwise.

The prices have gone up in Europe since the currency(change to euro) has made it easier for Banks to move around without internal exchange rates varying the value, just a direct transfer bank to bank without financial borders.....with the result that greedy corporations and "financiers" i.e business cronies can make huge business price mark-ups then send the money into switzerland, Lichtenstien, Caymen Islands, channel islands bank accounts then withdraw it in the USA and the South of France/monaco etc at leisure......the government loves to threaten the little guy about paying every last 1 Penny for tax, but they rub shoulders with "socialites" and "financiers" so they let their chums away with it....and the serfs suffer...

 

[Darkwood]

It's a shame Grant removed whatever it was he posted
If you have an opinion,whatever it may be, it reinforces any democracy by being able to take advantage of making that opinion known,so thats a pity

It was a jovial dig at me Des hence my response... suggested i didnt like Scots but wasn't sure where he got that?
But nothing regarding input on the debate.

 

[grantr37]

The rigs belong to BP and Norway I believe,as do all the equipment and the billions invested in the whole set up, however it is scottish soil (so to speak haha), so if Scotland do decide to break up the UK then things could get nasty between all parties concerned, Legally I think Scotland will have a good point about being lawful in owning whats left of the wells as the rigs are just inside their waters and not Norways, However I'm more concerned about all our futures if we part, Much more important than the remaining oil there together we are stronger for sure IMO, And lets not forget, all BP would need to do is stick up another well in English waters and use a special drill to get to the same fields from the new position, perhaps a battle of the Seas may happen Come on Scotland stay in the UK :17:

would that drilling mechanism be 50 miles long by any chance?

 

[grantr37]

It was a jovial dig at me Des hence my response... suggested i didnt like Scots but wasn't sure where he got that? But nothing regarding input on the debate.

whatever he said.....

 

[grantr37]

especially like the bureaucratic turd definition.

instead of calling them bureaucrats lets just call them beeuroturds....

 

[MDJ]

would that drilling mechanism be 50 miles long by any chance?

maybe, who cares anyhow, as I have mentioned I hope we all stay united, so there, poo pants and wee wee to you

 

[trev]

poo pants and wee wee to you

Is that the sound of the moral high gound being claimed Mike?

 

[Darkwood]

PMSL .... i see the 'no tolerence' approach to swearing is having unusual effects on peoples cursing

 

[Vegelen]

*Merde!

*A French word for Male and Female ballet dancers to say "break a leg" before they go on stage.

 

[MDJ]

I was only having fun for anyone with a chip :fuk2:

 

[grantr37]

I was only having fun for anyone with a chip :fuk2:

The way this country is going these days, pretty soon you will have a chip........embedded in your spine....lol...

 

[grantr37]

http://WavCentral.com/sounds/movies/enemy_state/esconv.mp3

 

[Darkwood]

Well he giving his speech as i write and TBH im a little supprised he basically slated the EU machine from all corners this is going to create an interesting slanging match from the other members of the EU
I resent the fact he has said public disillusion is at a high regarding the EU .... im public i follow the EU closely and under no terms am i diluded about the fact the EU is failing and falling apart the evidence is everywhere so exactly why is this a dillusion as at the moment if things dont changed we are going to be dragged under with it at a massive cost to britain .
Il give him this though im pleasantly supprised at the strength of attack he gave and a cast iron IN / OUT promise if hes voted back in next term, although i see this as a well worded promise as he surrounded it with new treaty agreements and deals.... it may sound like a straight forward speech but it has underlying strings attached.

 

[Octopus]

Fundementally the EU is socialist and believes in protectionism for its states and industries.

If and if Cameron is right about the decline of the EU its going to be in big trouble in a couple of decades, shackled with th Germans paying for the poorer countries and the French farmers protected.

 

[grantr37]

you vote him back in, things stay the same, still locked in to the EU forever, just wants voted back in then he will stick with the EU as people above him will not allow even a sniff at a chance to get out....

 

[Darkwood]

Well time will tell but he's may have just played an Ace and put the EU in a very arkward situation which they cannot ignore as they cant afford to lose us and even if they did ignore us we seem to get to vote the Exit ..... either way i can see us surviving and growing stronger .... some EU members are already claiming he trying to blackmail the EU ...well look at it how you want if you have the cards play them ... il take my hat off to him it takes alot of guts as PM to hand the EU their --- on a plate like that ... about time somebody did too!

 

[Darkwood]

you vote him back in, things stay the same, still locked in to the EU forever, just wants voted back in then he will stick with the EU as people above him will not allow even a sniff at a chance to get out....

Before; this referendum issue has been loosly promised and with well worded cover but hes now stood on the world stage and irrespective of deals on the table or where we stand with the EU in a few years he has to give the IN / OUT vote if re-elected.... his job now is to change public opinion in the next few years he has played his joker and could be said that blackmailed the EU they now realise if they dont make it better for us we will most likely be gone and the EU will really struggle as confidence fails in its markets, the Euro would plummet and the death march would ensue.

He cant get back out of the IN / OUT referendum now if re-elected and he is PM but this could be his joker if Conservatives are re-elected and he is PM he has to commit to his promise but think about it what if he hands over his chair at the elevens hour to another Conservative and we have a new PM ... this means the promise is empty as he stated IF IM P'M' on several occasions.... this gives the EU a chance to negotiate and possibly even pay DC off to retire his position at the Helm... he never said the IN/OUT vote is cast iron if the Conservatives are re-elected he said if Conservatives are re-elected and he is Prime Minister....

The more i listen to speech the more i see get out clauses im just hoping he's not playing this kind of game .... the the EU temper he will have just stirred could have been a pre-arranged smoke screen to make it look like hes is playing a Ace when in fact he has done a deal with the devil.

 

[UNG]

The EU has gone way beyond it's original remit of being a free trading group of nations to having an unelected, corrupt commission of failed politicians that produces new legislation everyday to justify it's existence and rules by threat

Exactly what can the EU do, if we leave there will be a 50 million pound a day blackhole in their budget that would almost certainly see it's collapse as those that actually put more in than they take out could not sustain the EU in it current format

In the last few years the EU has expanded bringing in countries that apart from a tidal wave of immigration have brought nothing to the party IMO

Over the years of membership the EU has decimated our fishing industry by allowing the fishing fleets of other members into our fishing areas and coupled with the quotas means a lot of our fleet is under utilised and uneconomic

Makes me laugh when you see projects that were carried out with EU funding when we are chucking £50 million a day at europe, it tries to make the EU look good but it's all bull

May be the UK threatening to pull out will be the wake up call that the EU needs to sort itself out

I'm all for out don't see any need to pay for a gravy train we don't need with the EU commission, the EU parliament and it's MEP's all with their inflated expenses not to mention the very generous retirement and pension scheme.

 

[Tesla1980]

Millions of Romanians and Bulgarians on their way here soon and they want to stay here, what i want to know is if England left the EU what would happen to all the foreign labour here already. Would they have to apply for visas or would it be thanks for your hard work but goodbye, If you really want to stop them coming here make them pay higher tax rate when they get here after all it's our NHS their using it's our very limited supply of houses their filling. Not to mention NHS waiting lists some but not all are NHS tourists who come here use the NHS have a £5000 operation then go home.

To live in this country should be qualified like Australia does it and America and if you can't speak English ---- OFF

And as for Germany one of the reasons they are such a big player in europe is because it never really started paying off it's war debt till 1990 when germany became unified which started as 269 billion gold marks and was reduced to 112 billion gold marks.

Quote "By the time country was reunified, in 1990, the world had changed dramatically since the days of Versailles, and policymakers decided to write off most of the original sum." http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...0vNWqV6lumEbHQA&bvm=bv.41248874,d.d2k&cad=rja

If they had to pay it all back with interest it's Germans you would see stacking shelves in Tesco's and labouring on building sites and cleaning the UK's toilets not the Polish history has a sense of irony.

 

[Des 56]

Take a trip down memory lane
Prime ministers of both parties were almost grovelling at the feet of De Gaulle every time an application for entry was submitted
They didn't particularly want Britain in the organisation, because they had no real need, so year after year,application after application, we were turned away

Eventually,Germany and (mainly) France were pestered and pressured enough to let us join

The UK was then, and is now, a half hearted member,a pain in the neck to EU progress and orderly management,the continentals had suspicions about our integrity then, it has been realised by the little England mentality that has endured since we first begged and pleaded to obtain entry
Why were we so persistent I wonder ?what has changed to alter those reasons

The politicians at the time and the politicians even now,they realised that the alternative of dreams of a prosperous Britain sailing happily along, doing such successful business with our dear friends in the commonwealth,its both fantasy and stupidity at its best

Don't for one moment think that the EU will collapse without us in the fold,we were reluctantly accepted, and for good reason initially,we were seen by many in Europe as a distraction and an obstacle to the prosperity of the EU

The anti EU electorate may very well get their dream of a UK (or whats left of it) doing it's own thing
The dreamers may also live to regret their foolishness

Once that seperation has been concluded,are people serious when they believe that favourable trading relations with the EU can or will take place ?
The EU is a market of nations with a common interest and will certainly not go out of its way to concern itself with the well being of UK trade

The argument is always made about how much we put in compared to what we get out
The UK has itself to blame (because of its half hearted membership),for much of its woes

An example is the EU fund for regeneration and investment in the poorer areas of Europe
In Wales we were given objective one status,the highest form of assistance

To encorage the individual nations to update their economies every pound of EU money for that investment had to have the same contribution from the central government of that nation in order for it to have sense and meaning,its called matched funding

There was objective one status given to the valleys of Wales,300 million of EU investment had to be turned away in one year alone because the UK government does not concern itself very much with regional investment or prosperity

As I said before,the South east of England and the banking sector of the City of London are its main or sometimes its only concern.manufacturing,which was mainly the remit of the regions, is of little interest to the well being of the politicians and money men who dominate media control and the wealth of the country

I also stated before that leaving the EU was mostly an English desire,it does have a majority for doing so in Wales Scotland and N Ireland but nowhere near the anti EU sentiments displayed by English peoples and a lot of those against are influenced by the UK media,they however are still not as determined anti Europeans as those in England

With the debate in Scotland about seperation taking a shop window position in the coming times,there may also be a lot of support generated because of a reluctance to go along with England in this venture and seperation would be more likely than if the UK stopped this unwise venture
Depending on the outcome,Wales and possibly N Ireland would also be looking at their role in a state that gave little interest in their own desire to remain with the EU

Its a dangerous and foolish path for our future economy and the future of the UK as a single entity
All because of self interested conservative politicians to display their delusions of empire and importance,which as never truly diminished

They do not receive the support in Scotland or Wales that gives them the full moral right to act on our behalf in this matter, we may be forced to go along with it when push comes to shove,but there may well be repercussions for UK plc in its present form, if this referendum goes the way it appears that it will

 

[Vegelen]

Its a dangerous and foolish path for our future economy and the future of the UK as a single entity

Des 56 and his FUD prediliction: "Dont venture forth, the world is a dangerous place, you wont make it out there with an additional annual £6 billion in your pocket, ON YOUR OWN".

I'd like to apologise to the EU for refering to you as a bureaucratic turd.
It was an innacurate statement and very unfair.

The EU is an honourable, democratic institution, set up for the benefit of everyone.*

The EU parliament distributes spending equally amongst ALL member states.

EU budget Spending 2011-2012:
Poland (14.5 billion), Spain (13.6 billion), France (13.1 billion), Germany (12.1 billion), Italy (9.5 billion), Belgium (6.8 billion), United Kingdom (6.6 billion), Hungary (5.3 billion), Portugal (4.7 billion) etc.

It is not fair to say any members of the European Union are net recipients**

Now that the UK is considering departing this venerable institution, I have a few sensible recommendations to make, to accomodate any future economic shortfalls.

(1) Poland could take its rightful place at the EU economic table.
(2) I'd also recommend Greece, but alas for obvious reasons that's a non starter.
(3) How about more responsibility / influence for Belgium? ***

The EU should reduce its 14.5 billion annual Polish spending and the Polish could increase their 3.2 billion contribution.
The Belgiums could reduce the 6.8 billion received and increase their respective annual 3.3 billion contribution.
The Germans and the Italians could scale back their 19.6 billion and 14.5 billion contributions and other wealthier EU countries could make up the economic shortfall.

It is time for the EU to regroup without UK influence (you'll be better off without us)****

* Itself.

** With the exception of Poland, Greece and Belgium.

*** They'd be perfect if they werent so busy spending EU budgets on building additional
headquarters in the centre of Brussells.

**** Until the next European war.

 

[Darkwood]

Ha ha ...loving this debate :rant:

The problem is although we posting on this thread are educated somewhat as to what is going on irrespective of our side it really comes down to the person on the street the bloke in the pub who are clueless and just see what is directly effecting them and irrespective of our educated views they casual joe blogs out there massively outnumber us... so what will decide the next election is not DC speech nor Merkal's smile :evil: but if immigration has stopped crippling public services and housing and whether you can get a job without competing against a european who struggles with basic English but will work for next to nothing....
These are what are felt and seen daily by the public and picking up on things like 50million a day goes to EU only strengthens the revolt so unless a deal is struck where immigration is drastically curbed and we start seeing the effect of this on the streets as well as available jobs then we are destined for exit.

 

[Octopus]

The EU is an honourable, democratic institution, set up for the benefit of ALL its members.

The EU parliament distributes spending equally amongst ALL member states.

EU budget (Spending 2011-2012): Poland (14.5 billion), Spain (13.6 billion), France (13.1 billion), Germany (12.1 billion), Italy (9.5 billion), Belgium (6.8 billion), United Kingdom (6.6 billion), Hungary (5.3 billion), Portugal (4.7 billion) etc.

1. A democratic institution - really?

2. If the spend is equal, why does Belguim get more than the UK?

Are you taking the pxss or are you well informed??

 

[Vegelen]

European Budget:

EU budget at glance

 

[Des 56]

UK and EU: Carwyn Jones concern over referendum pledge
Carwyn Jones says the EU referendum pledge is an unwelcome distraction

Uncertainty over Wales' European Union membership will create years of instability, First Minister Carwyn Jones has warned
Mr Jones called it "an unwelcome distraction" that could affect inward investment and job opportunities.

The Welsh Labour leader said it would also destabilise the future of the UK.


t Quote

This speech will have a destabilising effect on the future of the United Kingdom at a time when we can ill-afford it”
​

Carwyn JonesFirst Minister

, Mr Jones said: "Uncertainty over our membership will create years of instability and marginalisation just at the time when both Wales and the UK need stability, growth and influence.
"Such an uncertain future for the UK in Europe could put a brake on potential inward investors."


Mr Jones said the speech would have unwelcome "constitutional repercussions for the UK itself" and "plays into the hands of those who want to break up the United Kingdom".

The first minister added that it "will have a destabilising effect on the future of the United Kingdom at a time when we can ill-afford it."


Meanwhile Plaid Cymru warned that the benefits Wales enjoyed from EU membership were being put at risk by "the other parties playing political games".
They point to a recently published party report which shows that Wales benefits by an average £40 a year per person from various sources of EU funding.






Above is the type of division that this silly referendum is awakening and it will get worse




It's not a case of being fearful of going it alone at all,I personally and many others would be prepared to accept Wales leaving the UK and being part of a separate state within the EU
The anti EU electorate will not win this argument without a fight

Even if it did win the argument,it is putting the future of the UK as the price that may have to be paid, the sooner this realisation is known the more chance that flag waving English nationalists will see where its best future lies