EU electrical safety standard higher than UK standard.

[calmyrself]

I was asked by a client to put up a couple of Chrome bathroom wall fittings, bought from John Lewis. There was no earth terminal, only live and neutral. I rang JL and was told, that most bathroom lights, had no earth, as the cables were double insulated. Yet the shell of the fitting is metal. I was told that it is considered safe by the EU standard, and has has been passed safe by an independent assessor.

I told the JL MAN, you can have all the insulation you want on the cable, if the live cable came loose, through vibration or poor connection in the terminal, you have a very dangerous situation, especially in a bathroom. He was adamant, that the fitting was fine as he had all the paperwork to say it was. He went on to tell me the EU standard, ( EN 60335) was higher than the UK standard. Anyone come across this situ.

 

[i=p/u]

no, but you seem to be correct, just drill hole and add earth

 

[PC Electrics]

No reason why a fitting with a metal case cannot be double insulated inside. In fact there's plenty to choose from here:
Double Insulated Lighting

 

[i=p/u]

aye suppose construction could be designed class 2

 

[Mark.W]

Low Voltage lights maybe??!!

 

[PC Electrics]

Low Voltage lights maybe??!!

They'd have to be, since the supply into domestic properties is always low voltage !

 

[terminator]

They'd have to be, since the supply into domestic properties is always low voltage !

Think he meant EXTRA Low Voltage - hands up who haven't done that.

 

[grantr37]

Right.....Stuff the EU

 

[calmyrself]

Thanks for the replies lads. It 240v twin GU10 fitting. The double insulation on the cable is supposed to act as a safety device? Come on, and in a bathroom. I'm not having that. To drill or tap out out would not be poss on that fitting as it would be visible on the casing. In my mind it has to earthed, within touching distance, in a bathroom. Double insulated, more like double dodgie. And how does that make the EU standard safer than the UK.

 

[Mark.W]

They'd have to be, since the supply into domestic properties is always low voltage !

These are the kind of snotty comments that are not needed on this forum.

 

[grantr37]

I thought that all lights in Bathrooms in the UK now had to be either SELV(Separated Extra Low Voltage) or IP68 sealed and well out of reach.....ie recessed in a sealed enclosure on the ceiling.....I think that other fittings in Bathrooms would be illegal, just like the standard wall plate light switch that I seen in a Flat that a friend moved into recently (no pull chord just a plastic wall switch) thats as bad as putting a socket in a shower room ...



I think the guy that sold it was Angry as he was worried about not being able to sell them for bathrooms anymore, do you honestly think that the person had any training AT ALL......no didnt think so...he is just giving the "go away leave me alone" response that nearly all shop floor sales staff give..

 

[calmyrself]

Grant, i couldn't agree more. However I took it further with JL. I contacted the manufacturer and he tried to give me the same sphel. I told him more or less what you have just said. He then admitted to me that, they sell mainly in Europe, and asked me what he could do to make it safe. I contacted JL with that info, and they said, no no, we have all our certs telling us it's safe. Goodbye. I was only trying to help.

 

[Adam W]

It could be a class 2 fitting, as in there is double or reinforced insulation between the electrical stuff inside and the outer metal casing. Just because the casing is metallic doesn't automatically mean it's class 1.

If i was that worried about it I'd check the manufacturer's data, or even give them a phone call - you can't expect someone who works in a shop to know every tiny detail about every product on sale there.

 

[Sparks-R-Us]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Double Insulated[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Double insulated or class 2 electrical appliances are products that have been designed in a way so as not to require a safety connection to electrical earth (These products must NOT have a safety connection to Earth).[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]These products are required to prevent any failure from resulting in dangerous voltage levels becoming exposed causing a shock etc. This must be done without the aid of an earthed metal casing. Ways of achieving this include double layers of insulating material or reinforced insulation protecting any live parts of the fitting.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There are also strict requirements relating to the maximum insulation resistance and leakage to any functional earth or signal connections of such appliances. Products of this type are required to be labelled "Class II", "double insulated" or bear the double insulation symbol (the symbol displayed above)[/FONT]​

 

[Marvo]

I would say that comments from a manufacturer or sales agent would not cut the mustard. If they can produce official approval paperwork then great, if not I would say it's your call as the qualified professional, not theirs.

 

[calmyrself]

You're spot on. I've done all that. Spoken to the manufacturer, JL a couple of times. There is def no secondary, or reinforced insulation on the casing or shell of the fitting. The only thing that is double insulated is the cable, and that seems to be at the core of what they call safety. i know, shop staff, just get told what to say. The company/ manufacturer gets the fittings made in china, had a mate with a wholesalers check them out. I put it in writing to trading standards. Even with all that, they hold firm to the fact that it complies to EN60335, EU standard, and the independent assessment, saying it is safe. Fella in the shop said, we've been selling them for years and no one has complained. i said, maybe there all dead.!!

 

[calmyrself]

Spot on Marvo, I told the client, I wouldn't install them. Not sure what she did.

 

[MarkieSparkie]

BS EN 60335 is harmonised European standard and therefore there is no problem with fitting these wall lights. If you look at BS7671, Appendix 1, you will see that BS EN 60335 is a refered standard. Appendix 1 is normative (to be complied with) so any standard that is listed automatically complies with the requirements of BS7671.
You will also find that the metalwork is insulated for live parts by reinforced or supplementary insulation in order to meet that standard and is therefore a Class 2 accessory.

 

[Adam W]

She probably got someone else to install them who was happy to do so in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions and therefore with BS7671.

There was a post here recently about a Swedish-made binding machine which the manufacturer reckoned was class 2 (it had exposed metalwork) but didn't have the concentric squares symbol on it. It seems they don't bother with that in the rest of Europe.

 

[tonys]

Had it with external coach lights, I started to earth them, and asked why no-one in the past had. Looked at the instructions, stated class 2 double insulated.

Think they were JL fittings as well, looked and examined the back of the fitting and there was a thick piece of material between the area where the terminal block is situated and the outer cast metallic casing.

So they must be saying, the fitting could never become live under fault. Ill have another look at one later/tomorrow.

 

[i=p/u]

stick the buzzer setting on your multimeter and do earth bonddd not james, earth