FActory sockets issue

[Paddyenglishman]

HI All First post so go easy

After a recent H&S visit They were displeased with the fact that we have standard metal clad 13a sockets in some areas on the factory floor . The major of sockets are Blue 16a Commander or Yellow 110. A lot of equipment is low voltage load cells scales fed from 13a transfomer plugs that do not fit into the Commander plug . Can anyone point me in the right direction regulation wise or solution wise . Is there a blanket ban on domestic sockets in a Factory Environment.
Adapter plugs into the Blues make no logical sense safety wise and these scales never arrive with Blue plugs (i'm lucky to get UK plugs on them )
Any suggestions to soothe the inspectors ?
Thanks
Paddy

 

[davesparks]

Ask the h&s inspector to cite the exact rule regulation or law that he is basing this on.

 

[craigdiver]

replace the 13A sockets with metal clad 30mA RCD sockets and Mr HSE will be delighted

 

[Meggerman]

HI All First post so go easy

After a recent H&S visit They were displeased with the fact that we have standard metal clad 13a sockets in some areas on the factory floor . The major of sockets are Blue 16a Commander or Yellow 110. A lot of equipment is low voltage load cells scales fed from 13a transfomer plugs that do not fit into the Commander plug . Can anyone point me in the right direction regulation wise or solution wise . Is there a blanket ban on domestic sockets in a Factory Environment.
Adapter plugs into the Blues make no logical sense safety wise and these scales never arrive with Blue plugs (i'm lucky to get UK plugs on them )
Any suggestions to soothe the inspectors ?
Thanks
Paddy

Would their issue be the IP2X for the BS1363 Socket outlets and the higher IP44 for the Commando's. What sort of environment is it you operate in?

 

[snowhead]

This is NOT HSE I take it.
Just company own H&S?

 

[Pete999]

Nothing wrong with 13a M/C in an industrial situation, although it does depend on the industrial situation, what sort of environment etc, can't quite see where IP2X and IP4X come s into the equation though to be honest

 

[davesparks]

This is NOT HSE I take it.
Just company own H&S?

Of course it's not HSE, they are fighting against these 'elf nd safety' jobsworths just as much as we are.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I think you'll find, that it's not the type of plug they're worried about, more that it's metal clad.
for some reason they feel that metal clad sockets are dangerous.

 

[davesparks]

I think you'll find, that it's not the type of plug they're worried about, more that it's metal clad.
for some reason they feel that metal clad sockets are dangerous.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Marvo]

I think you'll find, that it's not the type of plug they're worried about, more that it's metal clad.
for some reason they feel that metal clad sockets are dangerous.

What on earth would lead them to that conclusion?

 

[netblindpaul]

Marvo,
It is because they have no clue about electrical stuff, I have the same battle there as well.

 

[wozz]

Of course it's not HSE, they are fighting against these 'elf nd safety' jobsworths just as much as we are.

I do hope there is a fair bit of sarcasm in that.

 

[davesparks]

No sarcasm intended.

It is a fact that the health and safety executive have a panel of 'mysthbusters' who work to dispell the ridiculous 'elf and safety' nonsense

see here Busting the health and safety myths

 

[Engineer54]

No sarcasm intended.

It is a fact that the health and safety executive have a panel of 'mysthbusters' who work to dispell the ridiculous 'elf and safety' nonsense

see here Busting the health and safety myths

What are you saying, that H&S personnel training is similar to our 17 day/Electrical Trainee's?? ...lol!!


Sorry, but we've seen the results of so called fully trained HSE construction site inspectors on overseas projects, and basically you don't see British H&S officers on any of those sites anymore, and that's a Fact!! Owners and contractors want to be able to start and more importantly finish projects, not be held up at every minor inferred infraction!! Most H&S personnel seen on the bigger/blue chip sites in this part of the world are now Aussie's a Kiwi's in Southeast Asia, with a smattering of North American guy's on appropriate projects. But you'll not see a Single Brit anywhere near a H&S dept on any private projects!! Maybe you'll see an exception on a government project in say Singapore, but they won't be on that project for very long, guaranteed!! lol!!

 

[wozz]

No sarcasm intended.

It is a fact that the health and safety executive have a panel of 'mysthbusters' who work to dispell the ridiculous 'elf and safety' nonsense

see here Busting the health and safety myths

Yes and have you ever questioned them on any of these situations? They usually come back with its a insureance issue, why would you need insureance for these mundane situations? O yes that's right as you will get taken to court and sued and there is the hse then no where to be seen or more likely helping prosecute and getting paid for it, busting myths is nothing to do with them helping it's them trying to avoid a public backlash for what they have helped to create.

 

[davesparks]

Yes insurance fears, liability fears and journalists looking for sensational stories have created the myths.
Yes you can get taken to court and the HSE will be nowhere to be seen, but if it is not an HSE matter then why on earth would they get involved? That would be a waste of time as it is nothing to do with them.

 

[Knobhead]

My biggest concern. The OP hasn’t a clue what he’s talking about.

Which leads me to the concussion, he’s the manager. He’s looking for a cheap get out.

 

[wozz]

Yes insurance fears, liability fears and journalists looking for sensational stories have created the myths.
Yes you can get taken to court and the HSE will be nowhere to be seen, but if it is not an HSE matter then why on earth would they get involved? That would be a waste of time as it is nothing to do with them.

So lets us a example then,

the company that was fined when a employee drove a peg into the ground and got a shock, HSE all over it no training, no work instruction, blah blah big fine. HSE does press conference about employer responsibilities when carrying out this work, after a successful prosecution.

School fate gets cancelled as head teacher doesnt want caretaker banging pegs into ground, paper gets hold of it runs story. BOOM myth busted by HSE, 'there is no health and safety law preventing school fate'.

Yes very well done that really helped everyone out.

 

[Pete999]

Have to agree with Tony some of the terminology in the first post sounds like someone who hasn't a clue

 

[wozz]

i thought it sounded like a manger who has been presented with a problem and wants some advice on it.

 

[davesparks]

So lets us a example then,

the company that was fined when a employee drove a peg into the ground and got a shock, HSE all over it no training, no work instruction, blah blah big fine. HSE does press conference about employer responsibilities when carrying out this work, after a successful prosecution.

School fate gets cancelled as head teacher doesnt want caretaker banging pegs into ground, paper gets hold of it runs story. BOOM myth busted by HSE, 'there is no health and safety law preventing school fate'.

Yes very well done that really helped everyone out.

Eh? The problem there is not health and safety preventing the school fate !
There is definately no law banning school fetes!

The head teacher has overreacted completely!
As with all things health and safety you identify the risks and hazards then take appropriate action to keep people safe.
In this situation the risks associated with banging pegs in the ground could have been reduced by checking plans of underground services and making a note that they have been checked!
Or else you use an alternative method of securing the marquee!

 

[wozz]

The problem is the HSE making a example of a one and then the other follows. Yes the school could look at alternatives or send the caretaker on a safe digging course, buy a calibrated CAT scanner, send him on a course to use it, commission someone to survey the grounds, or just cancel it due to their growing list of H&S responsibilities.

 

[davesparks]

You seem to be trying to make a point where none exists! They just have to apply common sense, take steps to check you aren't going to spike anything if you are knocking pegs into the ground!

 

[wozz]

Common sense? no mate you need a safe system of work, if you cant provide one dont do the job.

this is a bit off topic now so im going to leave it but theres plenty of cases with the myth buster saying one thing when in fact its quite another.

 

[davesparks]

A safe system of work is by and large a formal statement of common sense!

 

[Paddyenglishman]

Thanks for the replies .

Oh and i 'm not the manager or the owner or some dork looking for a quick cheap fix . I'm a electrician who trained a long time ago and has been doing machine repair for a very long time now . Its nice to see that all forums have members that jump to conclusions
.I'm not based in the UK and as such the enforcement of regulations is lax . I was looking for a hint as to where i can find in the IEE Regs that it says i can't use said sockets .
I like the rcd socket idea Craig and will probably run with it after i've written some twoddle to inspector in a statement . The environment ,in this case , doesn't come under any special conditions .Unlike other areas in the factory where i need Eex equipment .

Thanks for the ideas ,and the comments

Regards
Clueless Abroad ....... ( sarcasm really should have a font)

 

[Marvo]

I'm pretty sure you won't find it in any regs that you can't use this type of socket as long as they're correctly installed.

 

[wozz]

Agreed and they are suitable for the environment which they are in. Could it be the inspector didn't want general items from home plugged in? If so a change in paperwork forbidding items from home would be easiest. Whatever it may be I don't think 7671 is the answer here.

Can an you give anymore info on what the concerns are?

 

[Paddyenglishman]

Agreed and they are suitable for the environment which they are in. Could it be the inspector didn't want general items from home plugged in? If so a change in paperwork forbidding items from home would be easiest. Whatever it may be I don't think 7671 is the answer here.

Can an you give anymore info on what the concerns are?

I was informed , by my employer, that the inspector was unimpressed that we had the sockets .
As the operators bring in all sorts of Radios and the like i'm guessing he spotted one of these on an extension lead .
The change in paperwork is what will be happening along with the RCD type sockets .

 

[davesparks]

Thankfully there is not currently any legal requirement around here to only install things which a jobs worth inspector will be impressed by.

As I mentioned earlier get the inspector to cite which regulation he is referring to here, if he can't then tell him to do one!

 

[wozz]

I was informed , by my employer, that the inspector was unimpressed that we had the sockets .
As the operators bring in all sorts of Radios and the like i'm guessing he spotted one of these on an extension lead .
The change in paperwork is what will be happening along with the RCD type sockets .

Sounds like that's the problem then, items from home are not pat tested so then it becomes a problem, forbid employees bringing items in or if they do insist you pat test them first, this will bring them back under your h and s responsibilities. The actual sockets may not have ever been the problem just what was getting plugged in.

 

[Marvo]

I'd still tell him to take a hike in no uncertain terms. If they don't want staff plugging things in then they must deal with the staff directly instead of taking a chance and trying to make their problems yours. If he doesn't have a regulation to back up his ridiculous observations then tell him straight that you're not interested.

 

[ian.settle1]

What on earth would lead them to that conclusion?

Because they know diddly squat about electrics.

I would ask him what his electrical qualifications are pointing out that if he hasn't got any then he is not a competent person to make such a stupid statement.

 

[wozz]

I'd still tell him to take a hike in no uncertain terms. If they don't want staff plugging things in then they must deal with the staff directly instead of taking a chance and trying to make their problems yours. If he doesn't have a regulation to back up his ridiculous observations then tell him straight that you're not interested.

Why would you do that the bloke is just doing his job, my may have noticed some dodgy items bought in from home and has commented on it, third hand info could have meant this got transformed into he had a problem with the sockets rather than the items. When at work staff are under their employers h and s umbrella and should be following the rules if I had a office space or similar no way would staff be allowed to bring in their own items, this is common place in many peoples comtracts they are not allowed to do this.

****ing the the bloke off and telling him he is unqualified could lead to the HSE turning up armed with his info and you would be in for a fine. He doesn't have to be electrically qualified to comment on bad employment practices!

 

[Engineer54]

These jokers go looking for the obscure, when there is nothing fundamentally wrong with what they are there to inspect, that's the whole problem with H&S in the UK!! They make problems where there isn't any and can cause absolute chaos and vast expense to companies for the tiniest of ''perceived'' problem(s)....

 

[Rockingit]

What are you saying, that H&S personnel training is similar to our 17 day/Electrical Trainee's?? ...lol!!


Sorry, but we've seen the results of so called fully trained HSE construction site inspectors on overseas projects, and basically you don't see British H&S officers on any of those sites anymore, and that's a Fact!! Owners and contractors want to be able to start and more importantly finish projects, not be held up at every minor inferred infraction!! Most H&S personnel seen on the bigger/blue chip sites in this part of the world are now Aussie's a Kiwi's in Southeast Asia, with a smattering of North American guy's on appropriate projects. But you'll not see a Single Brit anywhere near a H&S dept on any private projects!! Maybe you'll see an exception on a government project in say Singapore, but they won't be on that project for very long, guaranteed!! lol!!

I remember being put very firmly in my place a few years ago, somewhere in the Middle East. I pointed out to someone that [whatever it was] wasn't good practice and wouldn't be tolerated in the U.K. "But we're not in the UK", was the simple reply!