Go on Laugh I don't care

[gazdkw82]

What’s the point in this thread?......stop judging others and get on with ya life!

We are not judging anyone specifically but making an honest observation on the situation within the trade as we see it.

This thread isn't stopping me from getting on with my life.

 

[Bobster]

What’s the point in this thread?......stop judging others and get on with ya life!

I think @Pete just wants to work out the timeline from when the only way into the electrical trade was a full term apprenticeship, to having multiple routes, college for 1 or 2 years, short courses etc...

I couldn't honestly say, I believe multiple options have been around for probably longer than I imagine them to have been.

It's also good to keep up to date in what qualifications are now required. The C&G numbers, and requirements seem to change every couple of years. An threads on how to become an electrician pop up on here almost every day.

 

[Baddegg]

Sorry @gazdkw82 i don’t see it that way, these threads seem to me that people feel they have the right to decide wether the route someone else has taken is correct or not?......I’m a time served carpenter (3rd generation) at this moment I’m building stairs from scratch, no easy task but I wouldn’t judge anyone for wanting to learn how to hang a door or fit skirting, easy tasks that really don’t require years of study and practice.....let’s face it domestic electrical works are not that tricky

 

[gazdkw82]

Sorry @gazdkw82 i don’t see it that way, these threads seem to me that people feel they have the right to decide wether the route someone else has taken is correct or not?......I’m a time served carpenter (3rd generation) at this moment I’m building stairs from scratch, no easy task but I wouldn’t judge anyone for wanting to learn how to hang a door or fit skirting, easy tasks that really don’t require years of study and practice.....let’s face it domestic electrical works are not that tricky

We are not judging the route they have chosen but have concerns about what they can legally do afterwards

 

[Baddegg]

We are not judging the route they have chosen but have concerns about what they can legally do afterwards

Why? We all know what they can legally do afterwards......design install inspect and test electrical installations in a domestic capacity...assuming they took the 2394/95 or 2391 and have joined a scheme to notify any works within part p...

 

[gazdkw82]

Why? We all know what they can legally do afterwards......design install inspect and test electrical installations in a domestic capacity...assuming they took the 2394/95 or 2391 and have joined a scheme to notify any works within part p...

Because they are not a competent person. Competent (skilled) person requires experience.

 

[Baddegg]

Because they are not a competent person. Competent (skilled) person requires experience.

Whose not competent?

 

[gazdkw82]

Someone who has completed a short electrical course.

How can they be competent?

 

[Pete999]

What’s the point in this thread?......stop judging others and get on with ya life!

I have bo intention of judging others Baddegg, the point of my thread was / is to understand how and why the influx of Short ( if you like boil in the bag courses) has reached the proportions they have. I for one understand that Apprenticeships as I knew them are mostly history.
Like I said, in my opening post, there are many very good Electricians who have taken this short route, you can't really judge anyone or any thing without speaking with them or seeing how they work, the point of my thread, as I said is to understand how and why it has happened.
Judgement was and is never on my agenda. Personally, probably due to age I don't like this fast route, it goes against all I know, it's not going to change, yes if you like I have a bee in my bonnet about it, so I personally will live with that, does that make me judgemental? no I don't think it does.
If you see it differently, then that's your prerogative, my interests are purely how and why, if people who answer my question, openly and honestly, are perceived by you as judgmental then that's between you and them, please don't derail what is an interesting debate.

 

[Baddegg]

Someone who has completed a short electrical course.

How can they be competent?

Quite a broad statement that gaz....

 

[gazdkw82]

Whose not competent?

Quite a broad statement that gaz....

Maybe. But I think it's true. Based on someone with no previous experience and completing a short course.

It's impossible to be competent after a few weeks of training.

 

[Baddegg]

Maybe. But I think it's true. Based on someone with no previous experience and completing a short course.

It's impossible to be competent after a few weeks of training.

Of course its impossible to be competent in anything after a few weeks

 

[Pete999]

Maybe. But I think it's true. Based on someone with no previous experience and completing a short course.

It's impossible to be competent after a few weeks of training.

Competency in any realm requires experience, does it not

 

[telectrix]

Competency in any realm requires experience, does it not

that's put it in a nutshell. no amount of classroom teaching can impart the knowledge of best way to route cables, how to chase without a wall crumbling round your ears, how to lift floorboards without butchering them, etc., etc., this can only be obtained through on-site experience.

 

[Intoelectrics]

that's put it in a nutshell. no amount of classroom teaching can impart the knowledge of best way to route cables, how to chase without a wall crumbling round your ears, how to lift floorboards without butchering them, etc., etc., this can only be obtained through on-site experience.

I agree, and you can see this everyday when somebody new or learning the trade have to seek advice on something that an experienced person learnt years back. There is no substitute for time and experience.

"Competency" is a broad term in the sense that somebody can be classed as competent from either experience or qualification. Yet in real life situations we all know that you cannot be really competent without experience no matter how qualified you are.
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Whose not competent?

Depends on what you class as competent. I could go and qualify to fly a plane, I could go on the simulators and learn very "competently" to be able to fly a plane. If you had the choice to fly with me or with a time served experienced pilot, who might well be less qualified, who's hands would you put your life in? I know who I would choose.

I don't think we are being judgemental to a person's capabilities based on their route to qualification. As in my example above, I may turn out to be a fantastic pilot, just as good as a time served pilot. But in reality this would actually be very unlikely and if so, not in the majority. My personal opinion is that short courses, provided they don't cut too many corners can be great for folk who haven't got the means and time to spend with so much studying. The problem I have is once completed, without enough experience are the majority of folk going be "competent" enough to safely do the job?

 

[Spoon]

My personal opinion is that short courses, provided they don't cut too many corners can be great for folk who haven't got the means and time to spend with so much studying. The problem I have is once completed, without enough experience are the majority of folk going be "competent" enough to safely do the job?

I'm with @Introelectrics on this. I have nothing against these short courses. In previous threads about this there have been members who have done these courses and know the limitations of the course and work within these limits. They know they will gain knowledge and experience over time and progress.

 

[SparkyChick]

The judgement is taking the form of blanket statements such as short coursers can't be competent. I'd put a £10 on me being more competent with zero formal training than a lot of current apprentices and I'd go so far as to say some of the local apprenticed sparks.

Someone's route into the industry has very little correlation on the quality of work they will do in my considered opinion. If they don't give a ----, whatever they do will be garbage whether they did an apprenticeship or a short course. I've seen enough shoddy work in my area to know this to be the case and if anyone claims being an apprentice is guaranteed to make you a better spark, I think you're deluding yourself.

Yes, you can gain more practical experience doing an apprenticeship, but based on what I've seen of a company I know to use apprentices heavily it could just as easily be garbage experience at the penny pinching end of the installation market, things like cables stretched tight in lofts and zero slack anywhere if you need to redress a cable (a clear indication in my mind of people who have never - or rarely - had to do maintenance on an installation).

So instead of dissing short coursers (I think it's fair to say that any that are here are trying to improve themselves - but may be being discouraged by the anti sentiment that seems to be picking up again - no surprise there I suppose) how about you get the thread back on track and discuss the actual information the OP is after? Just a thought.

 

[telectrix]

what gets my back up is the way these short courses are sold. "5 weeks and 6 grand and you'll be a qualified spark/domestic installer". Rubbish. there are those that have an aptitude for it and can progress with experience,maybe working alongside someone, and there are those that will never make it as long as they have a hole in their arse.

 

[gazdkw82]

Don't think anyone is "dissing" the short courses sparkychick. Its the freedom and confidence it can give to someone who has spent a very short time in training and doesn't understand the dangers to themselves and others that is in discussion.

I don't understand why everyone thinks we are sharing a negative viewpoint

 

[telectrix]

it's all amatter of degree. once upon a time sparks were looked up to as the senior trade. why, because if a wet-pants gets it wrong, the cat gets a bath. joiner gets it wrong, the cabinet falls on the worktop. sparks gets it wrong, someone dies.