Discuss How do we solve the long meter tail problem? in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Andy78

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he might have something actually - singles not run in containment should have mechanical protection and there own earth 6241Y like when you run that neutral to the upstairs light it has it's own earth.
They are PVC sheathed cables and don't require containment.
 
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Andy78

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Yep - normally each cable without containment needs mechanical protection and it's own earth like 6241Y doesn't it?
No. 6241Y is sheathed. If a cable is required to carry a cpc why do we have 6181Y ?
 
mechanical protection = sheath

I'm not saying it's fact, I don't know more asking for BS 7671 reference that Singles not in
containment require mechanical protection(sheath) and own Earth(CPC) like 6241Y?- it's something I've heard before.
 

Andy78

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mechanical protection = sheath

I'm not saying it's fact, I don't know more asking for BS 7671 reference that Singles not in
containment require mechanical protection(sheath) and own Earth(CPC) like 6241Y?- it's something I've heard before.
Yes the basic insulation of cables should not be exposed in a finished installation (526.8)

Yes containment such as metal trunking and conduit provides mechanical protection and may be used as a cpc. It would need earthing regardless of use as a cpc or not (411.3.1.1 and 543.2)

Yes a cpc should be present at all points and accessories in a circuit (411.3.1.1)

I know of no reg which states sheathed cables need to have integral cpcs.
 

davesparks

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Yep - normally each cable without containment needs mechanical protection and it's own earth like 6241Y doesn't it?
No a cable does not have to have a protective conductor contained within it to be installed.
You can install insulated and sheathed singles such as 6181Y or single core H07-RNF with a seperate protective conductor.
 
got me thinking so I just did a search I actually can't see any single-core cable for standard circuits i.e 1.5mm or 2.5mm/lighting sockets etc with a sheath and without a CPC ? am I missing something?
 
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123

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got me thinking so I just did a search I actually can't see any single-core cable for standard circuits i.e 1.5mm or 2.5mm/lighting sockets etc with a sheath and without a CPC ? am I missing something?
It wouldn't be common, or cost effective, to wire entire lighting and sockets in PVC/PVC singles. I've not come across any PVC/PVC 2.5mm, it would likely be a bit of a pointless cable as 2.5 T&E will do what is required at less cost.

It's very common in these parts (Northern Ireland) to use PVC/PVC 1.5mm single brown, blue, either with CPC or not for lighting circuits, but they would be for switch line drops to multigang switching etc, the majority of the circuit would be in T&E and looped at the rose. I generally loop at the switch and use 3 core and earth for 2 way, but I'd be in the minority here doing that. For alterations and additions the singles & singles and earth are really useful.
 

Andy78

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got me thinking so I just did a search I actually can't see any single-core cable for standard circuits i.e 1.5mm or 2.5mm/lighting sockets etc with a sheath and without a CPC ? am I missing something?
6181Y is available from 1.0mm to 35mm or maybe 50mm.
I see it all the time in existing lighting circuits.
 

Risteard

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I've not come across any PVC/PVC 2.5mm
Believe it or not it does exist. I had to get a coil of 2.5mm^2 PVC/PVC single brown around a year or more ago for a job. CEF were able to get me it, but obviously it wasn't a stock item.
 

123

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Believe it or not it does exist. I had to get a coil of 2.5mm^2 PVC/PVC single brown around a year or more ago for a job. CEF were able to get me it, but obviously it wasn't a stock item.
I'm curious as to what it was needed for?
 

Risteard

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I'm curious as to what it was needed for?
Basically I took over a job which had been sitting for years and the original installer had since retired. He had wired a dual element immersion heater to the wrong location.
 
Sorry I'm asking 1.5 2.5 etc
With Sheath
Without CPC

obviously it common without sheath and fairly common with sheath and CPC 6241Y

trying to prove singles with sheath don't need a CPC on standard circuits not talking about 16mm+ tails etc.
 

Risteard

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Sorry I'm asking 1.5 2.5 etc
With Sheath
Without CPC

obviously it common without sheath and fairly common with sheath and CPC 6241Y

trying to prove singles with sheath don't need a CPC on standard circuits not talking about 16mm+ tails etc.
A sheath has no bearing on any requirement for a cpc. The sheath is there solely to provide mechanical protection to the insulated core of the cable and nothing else.
 
Thanks I'm asking for link to single core
With Sheath
Without CPC
 
can you link please
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You get a gold star

Why would it be more common in N.I than rest of UK and what do you use it for?

Still a bit confusing as 6181Y is often named meter tails and thats not what I want but wont push it.
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this table suggests it's not just meter tales
TABLE.png
 
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Risteard

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Still a bit confusing as 6181Y is often named meter tails and thats not what I want
To be fair it's only described as meter tails in the sizes normally associated with that use. In the south of Ireland 16mm^2 T&E is described as meter tails because it's often used for that purpose. (Although I use PVC/PVC singles for it.)
 

davesparks

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got me thinking so I just did a search I actually can't see any single-core cable for standard circuits i.e 1.5mm or 2.5mm/lighting sockets etc with a sheath and without a CPC ? am I missing something?
You aren't missing anything, there isn't a demand for that type of cable so it's not commonly available.
The lack of availability doesn't mean it isn't permitted by the regulations.
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Sorry I'm asking 1.5 2.5 etc
With Sheath
Without CPC

obviously it common without sheath and fairly common with sheath and CPC 6241Y

trying to prove singles with sheath don't need a CPC on standard circuits not talking about 16mm+ tails etc.
Whether it is available to buy or not doesn't make any difference to the regulations.
It is permitted by the regulations, but such a cable is not in high demand so is not commonly available.
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Thanks I'm asking for link to single core
With Sheath
Without CPC
Look up H07-RNF flexiblr cable, it is available in single core from 1.5mm up to 630mm
 
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I think your right ;)
 

Risteard

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While your both here, have either of you worked over the border and noticed and differences?
Yes I do lots of work across the border. At one time it was about 75% of my work. But to be fair I'm only a mile from the border.

Yes there are certainly differences (and of course similarities). And different regulatory regimes. And currencies and tax regimes.
 
Yes I do lots of work across the border. At one time it was about 75% of my work. But to be fair I'm only a mile from the border.

Yes there are certainly differences (and of course similarities). And different regulatory regimes. And currencies and tax regimes.
What are some of the more interesting differences?

What T&E do you prefer?

I see no reason for Irish T&E not to be compliment with BS7671 but not the other way round so do you use the Irish T&E for jobs in the North?
 

Risteard

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What are some of the more interesting differences?

What T&E do you prefer?

I see no reason for Irish T&E not to be compliment with BS7671 but not the other way round so do you use the Irish T&E for jobs in the North?
I don't use I.S. 201-4 T&E in the north for a number of reasons. One being that it's not made to any British Standard (it is Irish Standard cable). The more important reason being that it is 30% dearer and would make me uncompetitive.

That said I do like the I.S. 201-4 cable, but given that most electrical accessories would be manufactured in the UK or for the UK market there can be an issue with larger protective conductors in terms of connecting them. Especially if you consider the likes of a shower switch (or perhaps cooker switch). You also have to upsize all the clips as there aren't clips made specifically for this cable.

There is a lot more supplementary bonding in the south. Also an electrode is required on all installations (with 99%+ being TN-C-S (Neutralised)). Accessory heights are part of the Wiring Rules and therefore must be compliant even where existing heights do not comply. All bathroom circuits require their own dedicated RCD. Quite a number of other differences. Building Regulations require smoke detectors in every bedroom along with a myriad of other rooms.
 
cool - let me know if you think of any more

I've also heard of twin brown and earth? what's this used for?

and is the north mainly TNS?
 

Risteard

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cool - let me know if you think of any more

I've also heard of twin brown and earth? what this used for?

and is the north mainly TNS?
Twin brown is used throughout Ireland, north and south. It's typically for switch drops or strappers.

The north would be mainly TN-C-S, although there are some TN-S installations still around, and in rural areas (and even on the outskirts of cities in places) TT systems.
 
Sorry stupid question why does the South Require an electrode with TNCS?

ill let you get some Zzzz ;)
 

Risteard

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Sorry stupid question why does the South Require an electrode with TNCS?

ill let you get some Zzzz ;)
To help to maintain the DSO's PEN conductor at Earth potential. Obviously the Neutral is connected to Earth at source (which is what makes it Neutral). Earthing the PEN at every installation helps to keep this at Earth potential, plus also the comments on another thread about the dangerous voltages which can present themselves where there is a broken PEN.
 
Twin brown is used throughout Ireland, north and south. It's typically for switch drops or strappers.
This is something I've long been curious about. Given that twin brown is not as widely available as blue/brown T&E, and therefore likely to be more expensive, why do so many NI electricians use it rather than sleeve regular T&E?
 

KennyKen

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To help to maintain the DSO's PEN conductor at Earth potential. Obviously the Neutral is connected to Earth at source (which is what makes it Neutral). Earthing the PEN at every installation helps to keep this at Earth potential, plus also the comments on another thread about the dangerous voltages which can present themselves where there is a broken PEN.
Similar to Australia... Here it’s called the MEN multiple earthed Neutral. IEC 60364 describes the MEN as a TNC-S system but each property has an earth stake. TPS cable also has a sheathed earth and the cores are stranded. There is also a cable called a Twin Active which is red and White. Essentially for strappers.
 

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