“HRRB” regs and EICR’s

[LukeD]

Its like fighting a argument with idiots at times !
OK.


EICR . Building 6 floors Floors high . legal interior height is ground floor to top floor flooring level 15.51 metres . Yet been told that AFD’s need to be fitted . So ..I show them the regs as I believe and also the Gov portal page for the legal measuring of a building to determine if its under 18m . Building documents show 6 floors . Building insurance docs show 6 floors !


So why is there some conflict ??? Unless someone just thinks they can make money from the Job ??

 

[Cbelectrics]

I do understand your gripe . Not really said why it’s concerning you, costing you money?

 

[mainline]

Its like fighting a argument with idiots at times !
OK.


EICR . Building 6 floors Floors high . legal interior height is ground floor to top floor flooring level 15.51 metres . Yet been told that AFD’s need to be fitted . So ..I show them the regs as I believe and also the Gov portal page for the legal measuring of a building to determine if its under 18m . Building documents show 6 floors . Building insurance docs show 6 floors !


So why is there some conflict ??? Unless someone just thinks they can make money from the Job ??

You say a building, but what sort of layout and use. ?

 

[LukeD]

You say a building, but what sort of layout and use. ?

Flats . 6 floors in total . Ground and 5 floors , each floor has 2 flats . . So why would anyone say its a “HRRB” ?? Its not Over 6 floors or over 18m when measured correctly . There are only 2 x regs for domestic ?

 

[Cbelectrics]

Flats . 6 floors in total . Ground and 5 floors , each floor has 2 flats . . So why would anyone say its a “HRRB” ?? Its not Over 6 floors or over 18m when measured correctly . There are only 2 x regs for domestic ?

They are still recommended according the regs.

That’s the only part that would apply to this situation….airing on the side of caution (from a legal standpoint) if given the benefit of doubt or like you said trying to make a bit more money.

As you’re close to the height there is some sense of future proofing the residence (regs changing)

All being said and done though it should be your decision. They should advice you to cover their arse legally but anything else is trying to make money.

Can you get the work done then get someone else to do the eicr?

 

[mainline]

Flats . 6 floors in total . Ground and 5 floors , each floor has 2 flats . . So why would anyone say its a “HRRB” ?? Its not Over 6 floors or over 18m when measured correctly . There are only 2 x regs for domestic ?

Is the building owed by one person ?

 

[mainline]

They are still recommended according the regs.

That’s the only part that would apply to this situation

It's not just about Height, it could be classed as HMO.

 

[LukeD]

It's not just about Height, it could be classed as HMO.

HMO ??? How...never seen luxury flats in a posh part of london , grade 2 listed . With that 6-8 flats been classed as HMO . These are purpose built , not conversions of any types

 

[LukeD]

Is the building owed by one person ?

No... each flat owner is a director . But there is a head lease holder .

 

[LukeD]

They are still recommended according the regs.

That’s the only part that would apply to this situation….airing on the side of caution (from a legal standpoint) if given the benefit of doubt or like you said trying to make a bit more money.

As you’re close to the height there is some sense of future proofing the residence (regs changing)

All being said and done though it should be your decision. They should advice you to cover their arse legally but anything else is trying to make money.

Can you get the work done then get someone else to do the eicr?

“Recommended “ , but not a issue for a EICR to be “failed” . As the legal requirement has been met by fitting RCBO’s

 

[LukeD]

What are the requirements for AFDDs in BS 7671:2018+A2:2022?​

The requirements for AFDDs in BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 are focused to provide protection in buildings where a fire could lead to major consequences. AFDDs offer most benefit for arc faults which may occur in equipment plugged into the electrical installation, hence the requirement concentrates on circuits supplying socket-outlets.

Regulation 421.1.7 of BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 requires AFDDs to be provided for single-phase AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 32 A in:

• Higher Risk Residential Buildings (HRRB)

• Houses in Multiple Occupation (HMO)

• Purpose-built student accommodation

• Care homes.

For all other premises, the use of AFDDs is recommended for single-phase AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets not exceeding 32 A. However, this is a recommendation and not a requirement, which means it is a consideration for the designer and not something that shall be done.

What is a higher-risk building?​

A higher-risk building is now defined in Legislation. The Building Safety Act 2002 considers a higher-risk building to be at least 18 metres in height or has at least 7 storeys and contains at least 2 residential units. However, it is recognised that height and use are not the only indicators of risk.

At the time of producing BS 7671:2018+A2:2022, The Building Safety Bill was still working its way through Parliament and the term used at the time was Higher Risk Residential Buildings (HRRB). It has since become Legislation, namely The Building Safety Act 2002, which came into force on 28th April 2022. The term HRRB has been amended to ‘higher-risk buildings’, this will need to be updated in the next Amendment to BS 7671.

When do I need to install AFDDs?​

AFDDs are required when carrying out new electrical installation work in the types of buildings mentioned previously, whether it is a complete installation or an addition or alteration to an existing circuit.

It is not a requirement to upgrade an existing circuit to include AFDDs when carrying out simple maintenance work such as like-for-like replacements. The requirements of BS 7671 are not retrospective, so, existing installations do not require upgrading.

 

[mainline]

HMO ??? How...never seen luxury flats in a posh part of london , grade 2 listed . With that 6-8 flats been classed as HMO . These are purpose built , not conversions of any types

I don't really know what the setup is, I'm just playing devil's advocate


If the building was converted into flats before 1992 or does not meet the 1991 Building Regulations, and over a third of the flats are rented out, then the whole building will be deemed a HMO, as dictated by Section 257 of the Housing Act 2004.
flats are owner-occupied: this is known as a section 257 HMO ... A building is considered an HMO if it is occupied by more than one household.

 

[mainline]

No... each flat owner is a director . But there is a head lease holder .

Sounds complicated

 

[mainline]

What are the requirements for AFDDs in BS 7671:2018+A2:2022?​

The requirements for AFDDs in BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 are focused to provide protection in buildings where a fire could lead to major consequences. AFDDs offer most benefit for arc faults which may occur in equipment plugged into the electrical installation, hence the requirement concentrates on circuits supplying socket-outlets.

Regulation 421.1.7 of BS 7671:2018+A2:2022 requires AFDDs to be provided for single-phase AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 32 A in:

• Higher Risk Residential Buildings (HRRB)

• Houses in Multiple Occupation (HMO)

• Purpose-built student accommodation

• Care homes.

For all other premises, the use of AFDDs is recommended for single-phase AC final circuits supplying socket-outlets not exceeding 32 A. However, this is a recommendation and not a requirement, which means it is a consideration for the designer and not something that shall be done.

What is a higher-risk building?​

A higher-risk building is now defined in Legislation. The Building Safety Act 2002 considers a higher-risk building to be at least 18 metres in height or has at least 7 storeys and contains at least 2 residential units. However, it is recognised that height and use are not the only indicators of risk.

At the time of producing BS 7671:2018+A2:2022, The Building Safety Bill was still working its way through Parliament and the term used at the time was Higher Risk Residential Buildings (HRRB). It has since become Legislation, namely The Building Safety Act 2002, which came into force on 28th April 2022. The term HRRB has been amended to ‘higher-risk buildings’, this will need to be updated in the next Amendment to BS 7671.

When do I need to install AFDDs?​

AFDDs are required when carrying out new electrical installation work in the types of buildings mentioned previously, whether it is a complete installation or an addition or alteration to an existing circuit.

It is not a requirement to upgrade an existing circuit to include AFDDs when carrying out simple maintenance work such as like-for-like replacements. The requirements of BS 7671 are not retrospective, so, existing installations do not require upgrading.

Did you say the circuits have been upgraded to rcbos ?.


AFDDs are required when carrying out new electrical installation work in the types of buildings mentioned previously, whether it is a complete installation or an addition or alteration to an existing circuit.

 

[LukeD]

Sounds complicated

Like most properties ... there on leases etc and then leases have “head leases “ and even more silly stuff . These are daft money places that look of from the front , the rears are always a complete mess ! The head leas holder will be someone like “Howard de Walden etc . A major london player

 

[LukeD]

Did you say the circuits have been upgraded to rcbos ?.


AFDDs are required when carrying out new electrical installation work in the types of buildings mentioned previously, whether it is a complete installation or an addition or alteration to an existing circuit.

The apartment was re wired few years ago. All good as gold . RCBO”s on ICR etc .SPD added and 3 extra radials . All RCBO’s . All testing for EICR now . Results readings all GOOD> But the question of AFD’’s has opened a can of worms as one flat has just been passed without them (as there seems to be NO law to say they are required . And ‘this job becomes an issue as its been fed to someone that there should be AFD’s .Now its like a bloody migraine . And One I feel technically. AFD”s could be “recommended “ But cannot be used as a reason to issue a C code

 

[westward10]

Why are you involved, I really don't understand some of your posts.

 

[LukeD]

Why are you involved, I really don't understand some of your posts.

Let’s deal with the question of what’s right or wrong ...

 

[davesparks]

“Recommended “ , but not a issue for a EICR to be “failed” . As the legal requirement has been met by fitting RCBO’s

An EICR cannot 'fail' at all, it can only be satisfactory or unsatisfactory.

The issue of AFDDs should, in my opinion, be a C3 could observation if any and so not automatically result in an unsatisfactory result.

 

[LukeD]

An EICR cannot 'fail' at all, it can only be satisfactory or unsatisfactory.

The issue of AFDDs should, in my opinion, be a C3 could observation if any and so not automatically result in an unsatisfactory result.

Its a pass or no pass situation ! Like a cars MOT ...any legal jargon can be used .Buts its either passed or failed ! I thought about the C3 option but then again why even a C3 ? Both requirements for them to be used has not been proven correct as I have proven them incorrect . Building height and amount of floors . Having to tell someone how a building is measured Is weird. They thought it was from top of building down etc . Despite showing them the legal , they still say “its over 18m “ . So ,so far , no one has said they are REQUIRED within this thread .