I thought they were history

[BES]

Since the return of capial punishment in the 70s USA the time between sentance and excution has become ridiculous in some cases 30 yrs I certainly don't want that to happen in the uk. The american justice system is completly differnt to ours and you have to remember each state has its own laws on the death penalty. I agree there has been a vast number of innocent people in the states executed and the vast majority of executions now take place in the bible belt that in it self must tell you something very difficult to compare the states justice system and death penalty laws to the uk.

 

[trev]

The death penalty in the US is something of a lottery, you're far more likely to be sentenced to death if you're poor, black and poorly educated whereas over here if you were found guilty you were sentenced to hang, no ifs or buts. Whether the sentence was carried out is another matter so I appreciate your point.
I wouldn't like to join a club which boasts members such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea and China. All countries not well renowned for their human rights records

 

[Barry White]

Have to agree the National Front are not my kind of political party (Adolf would have liked them) But noticed the thread going off on a tangent about capital punishment and I believe there is a place for it
mass murderers like Peter Sudcliffe Child killers like Ian Huntly,Mark Bridger, Myra Hindley and Ian Brady.

As mentioned earlier money is a factor too the likes of Ian Huntley playing on His Xbox with the latest games (Fact a friend works at Wakefield prison believe Huntley is now in Durham) and then Prisoner compensation claims for jail attacks (why should they get compensation)

Bring back the rope for the above and similar offences

 

[BES]

I agree trev those countries have an appauling record on human rights. But there has been in recent years to many cases in this country that could have been proven beyond doubt and the people who commited these crimes need to be dealt with more severly that they are. The world is changing and so should the way we deal with certain types if people who commit certain types of crimes. Im not saying eye for an eye in anyway but there is a certain type of person who commits a crime that's so appauling that even life in prison without the chance of release is not enough.

 

[trev]

So to demonstrate that killing people is wrong the state kills people? That doesn't make sense to me. Another point worth mentioning is that in my opinion to be an advocate of the death penalty you have to be prepared to pull that lever. Could you do that and live with yourself? It;s very easy to say yes but have a think about it. It's not a him or you situation where you're fighting for your life, it's a cold blooded, methodical process.

 

[Barry White]

I am not Talking about murder any of us can commit murder without meaning to but theres the serial murderers Doctor Shipman and countless others proved without doubt to be guilty who want the rope
Yes I could and would pull the lever on any of the B*$t***$ mentioned who are still with us and sleep soundly

Do not want mandatory death sentences for murder

Up to 1998 you could still be hanged for treason! but now we are in Europe human rights prevent this so it wont be coming back anytime soon

 

[trev]

Could you live with yourself if one of them was later proven to be innocent? All I'm meaning by that is no system is 100% infallible, mistakes have been made in the past and could be made in the future.

Until the final abolition you could have been hanged for getting in the queen's way. Obstructing the passage of the monarch was the name of the crime but to the best of my knowledge no one had even been charged with it so I' not sure what your point is with "Up to 1998 you could still be hanged for treason". We've been in what is now the EU since the early 1970s. The human rights laws which have been denigrated in the tory press this week were actually fought for by none other than Winston Spencer Churchill and you'll not find many in history that were more tory than him.

 

[dingledong]

In London gang shootings are not a heat of the moment thing ,are they ? I agree with innocent people being found guilty but if it's proven beyond doubt is Lee rigby's death and some of these gang shootings ,Ian Huntley then I think yes

 

[CockneyReject]

Well Newcastle can be like the land that time forgot so if the NF are going to be found anywhere Newcastle won't be far off the top of that list

As for prison/capital punishment etc prisons nowhere near as harsh and unforgiving as it should be, compensation for attacks while in prison is a joke, being able to have access to education that would cost thousands for a normal tax payer, games consoles and the like too really shouldn't have their place in our prisons they should be brutal evil places where scum are left to rot, all these Paedo rings, child killers and rapists that get ****y little sentences and an easy ride while inside should be jailed til they are carried out in boxes and everyday day they are in there should have them beaten, tortured and abused right up until their last, that would be more of a fitting punishment than a death sentence and a better deterrent

 

[Marvo]

Could you live with yourself if one of them was later proven to be innocent? All I'm meaning by that is no system is 100% infallible, mistakes have been made in the past and could be made in the future.......

That's a bit of an understatement. Here's the list of people who were on death row in the US and were later exonerated of the crimes they were found guilty of committing.

 

[trev]

"prisons nowhere near as harsh and unforgiving as it should be"
You know this how exactly?
"compensation for attacks while in prison is a joke" if society puts them there then they should kept safe otherwise we're no better than Stalinist Russia.
" being able to have access to education that would cost thousands for a normal tax payer" Being poorly educated is often the reason people end up there. Rehabilitation has to be part of the system.
"beaten, tortured and abused" Yes, let's join that exclusive club of countries which have no regard for human rights tomorrow, the government want us to anyway so we may as well. Which human right do you want rid of first?
The right to vote?
The right to freedom from arrest without just cause?
How about the right to a fair and open trial?
Or freedom of belief?
The right to criticise the government?

 

[telectrix]

says a lot for the american justice system. their lawyers play trials as a game. it's all in the winning. whether the accused is guilty or not is irrelevant.

 

[trev]

That's a bit of an understatement. Here's the list of people who were on death row in the US and were later exonerated of the crimes they were found guilty of committing.

Bloody hell, 146 people who (under the British system of executions being carried out after 3 Sunday from the date of sentencing) all would have hanged.
The magic, infallible DNA being part of the evidence in 20 of those cases.

 

[Marvo]

The interesting thing is that you would think with DNA evidence in the more recent convictions they would be more foolproof and less likely overturned later on but;

To begin with, exonerations from death row have not declined in recent years. In fact, the number of people that were freed in 2003 was more than in any year since death sentencing resumed in 1973. Twelve people were cleared of their original offense in 2003. Moreover, the average number of exonerations has steadily increased in each quarter of the total years covered in this report: 1973-2004 (see chart on p. 2). source

Also please note the list I originally linked was up to 2004 only but it was more than sufficient to make the point anyway which is that the legal/justice system is fundamentally flawed ergo introducing the death penalty will undoubtedly result in many deaths of innocent people.

I'm sure if you scratch around online you'll find more recent statistics.

 

[dingledong]

That's American though
Ok another question how about this jihadist John who seems to like beheading people if we captured him should he have the death sentence ,
And trev prisons aren't that bad , not good but not bad they could be a lot worse

 

[Marvo]

That's American though....

There's no UK statistics available because you don't have the death penalty. The US is a fair indication though, they have an adversarial justice system same as the UK, their police force has similar involvement in the prosecution, the presumption of innocence is given to the accused until evidence beyond reasonable doubt refutes this and they have similar evidence techniques available such as DNA etc. If you want to go down that road you'd need to state differences in the two systems that you could point to which might mean the outcome in the UK would be that prosecutions would be more reliable.

 

[Marvo]

......Ok another question how about this jihadist John who seems to like beheading people if we captured him should he have the death sentence

I don't personally know 'jihadist John' but pointing at individual candidates for the death penalty doesn't detract from the fact that if you do introduce it you need to have the stomach for the inevitable innocent victims of the legal system who will have been wrongfully executed. Going by the hoo-har you get in the UK press everytime there's a wrongful conviction even when you don't have the death penalty I get the impression as a nation you don't.

 

[dingledong]

All people who go to court are individuals ,so every case is individual
I can only think of a couple of things that are different between us and US
So your saying there is no crime heinous enough that would warrant the death penalty in your view
War criminal a person like Adolf eichmann
A serial killer ,
I do think there are some crimes that do deserve the death penalty but as you say would innocent people be killed ! ! !
It's a hard decision but with modern forensics etc I would say the odds are getting better on correct convictions

 

[Geordie Spark]

I quite agree with you trev and your arguements against are the same I used to and in some respect still believe but now we have the technolgy to prove beyond doubt the guilt of the people who commit these crimes. The examples you quote such Evans are very few and I hope that the evans/ christie case would have a different out come today has would the guilford 4 & birmingham 6. Take the hanratty case his family fot years beleived he was innocent and was wrongly hanged but when his remains werw exhumed and tested for his dna it proved his guilt. Im affraid getting the wrong person today is so slim the using that arguement against the return has long since gone.

I admire your optimism and would say you have a Hell of a lot more faith in technology than I ever will have and even if technology is 101% reliable it still relies on a human to operate it and -as we see here on this forum - some humans are real muppets!!

 

[dingledong]

But don't you think that the thought of a possible death sentence would deter some people from committing some crimes ?