Discuss Inspecting and Testing in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Welcome to ElectriciansForums.net - The American Electrical Advice Forum
Head straight to the main forums to chat by click here:   American Electrical Advice Forum

V

vader2015

Hey guys, i have started to do some inspecting and testing, i am finding it very interesting although the certification part is a little confusing lol. To help me i have been out and bought GN3 plus the NICEIC guide to inspecting, testing and certification, but there are some parts i am still a little unsure off so i have got a few questions if you don't mind helping me with, please bare with with me this might be a long read lol.


The installation in question is on a domestic TNS supply. The installation is in a detached garage, which incorporates the supply cable, consumer unit, 16A radial circuit, and 6A light circuit. The supply to the consumer unit is run in 6mm SWA externally and 6mm T&E (plus 6mm single for earth) internally. The 6mm supply cable is protected by a 40A switch fuse, fed with 16mm tails from henrys blocks.




I have got a few questions about filling out the EIC.


1. On page 2 of the EIC under the section SUPPLY CHARACTERISTICS, under sub section ​Characteristics of primary supply overcorrect protectective devices On the main cut out fuse, there is no clear markings of BS EN number, so i phoned western power to enquire. When i eventually got hold of someone who could supposedly answer my questions, they told me it should be BS 88 part 2, with 16KA breaking capacity (and the Ze was 0.8 ohms for the Ze enquiry test). Its the "should be" part that I'm unsure of, do i need to keep ringing them to get a more definitive answer? Or should i just put down what he said? I was also under the impression that all domestic cut outs were supposed to be BS 1361's?


2. Under the section PARTICULARS OF INSTALLATION AT THE ORIGIN, where you have 4 boxes for:


Measured Ze, Maximum demand, Number of smoke alarms, Protection measure(s) for fault protection.



What do you put in the box entitled Protection measure(s) for fault protection? Is it switch fuse? Or is it RCD/RCCB?RCBO? Or is it EEBADS? Or all of them?


3. Again under the section ​PARTICULARS OF INSTALLATION AT THE ORIGIN, where you have the sub section Main switch/Switch-Fuse/Circuit Breaker/RCD do i fill out the details for the 40A switch fuse, and not the consumer unit RCD?


i.e BSEN 60947-3, 2 poles, 230v, 40A etc


4.Under the section SCHEDULE OF ITEMS INSPECTED, under sub section 6.0 OTHER METHODS OF PROTECTION 6.1 Basic and fault protection, what do i put for the boxes titled:


a) SELV LOCATION
b) PELV LOCATION

c) Double insulated/Reinforced insulation
d) Electrical seperation for one item of equipment


For a) SELV, do i just tick the box? and what do i put in the location box, it is just garage?
For b) PELV do i just put N/A
For c) Double insulated/Reinforced insulation do i tick the box due to the SWA cable? and in location box put clipped direct/underground?
For d) Electrical seperation for one item of equipment do i just put N/A?


5. On page 4 of the EIC, should i put down 3 circuits? and not just 2 circuits for the 16A radial and 6A lights circuit


i.e
1. Garage SUpply
2. Radial Sockets
3. Lights


6. Am i right that the disconnection time for the 3 circuits should 5s for the 40A garage supply, as it is over 32A and a distribution circuit? And the 16A radial and 6A light should both be 0.4s?


7. For the garage supply cable circuit which reference method from appendix 4 do i put? `As the cable is both clipped direct and buired in ducting? Do i put ref C and B?


8. For the garage supply cable circuit do i put number of points served as 1? i.e the consumer unit?


9. For the garage supply cable circuit in the maximum permitted Zs, i am really struggling to find a definitive figure. As the protective device is a 40A 1361 fuse, which isn't listed in the tables in BS7671 or the OSG. I did read somewhere that 1361 fuses have now been reclassified as BS 88 but the only fuses listed are BS 88-3 in table 41.4, but they are 32A and 45A not 40A. There are BS 88 40A fuses listed in table 41.6 but they are for Uo of 55v.


So my question is 2 parts, i) are BS 1361 now classed as BS 88? and ii) as i can't find a tabulated figure 40A BS88? should i use manufacturers instructions, as i found this link with states the Lawson's ME40A fuse stating 1.4 ohm's?


http://help.tradingdepot.co.uk/electrical/lawson-fuses/lawson-fuses-application-data/


10. On the garage supply cable circuit for RCD operating times boxes, do i just put N/A in the boxes?


11. For the 16A radial circuit, for the maximum Zs permitted by BS7671 do i put 2.73ohm's as stated in table 41.3 for type B 60898 breakers?


12. For the 6A light circuit, for the maximum Zs permitted by BS 7671 do i put 7.28 ohm's as stated in table 41.3 for type B 6088 breakers?


13. Am i right that as if i do R1 + R2 test, i then don't have to also do R2 test?


14. For the box Maximum measured earth fault loop impedance Zs, when i do Zs test on the radial circuit and light circuit by linking Phase and CPC and testing between Phase and CPC at each accessory point, do i take the highest reading as my Zs value?



The reading i am getting is 0.31 ohm's,

and since Zs = Ze + (r1 + r2)
Zs = 0.22 + 1.34
Zs = 1.56


So surely my reading should be 1.56 ohm's not 0.31 ohm's






Sorry for the war and peace post, and sorry for so many questions, i hope you don't mind answering all my questions and can excuse my ignorance but i am learning haha


Cheers
 
As you are doing notifiable work, have you rung your schemes technical support line?

Not sure I understand point 14 - your R1 + R2 - 1.34 - is this the sockets or lights? Either way its one hell of a big garage!
 
My thoughts are that you are asking far too many questions in your original post, almost like we are doing the actual EICR!

If you are not sure on this many aspects of it, perhaps you should gain more knowledge and experience first. Admittedly, it can be confusing when starting out, but practise on installations as you go along and read lots. This will prove invaluable and in a few years time the forms will be a lot easier for you to fill in.
 
The amount of people on here who are asking basic questions when they seem to be getting paid to do the job.

I know that when you first start working on your own, you get lots of little things that you've not come across, and you're not sure about, but the amount of posts lately from people who have literally no idea what they're doing is getting past the point of ridiculous.
 
Vader your profile say's that you are an Electrician but can you just confirm at what level you are IE Qualifications, how many years of experience, what area of the industry you specialise in. Whilst we are all here to help fellow Electricians Englishman does raise a valid point, are you qualified,competent and experienced enough to be doing inspection & Testing, This used to be an area for the cream of the crop and would only be attempted after many years of cutting your teeth in the game, now sadly it seems far too many guys are jumping straight into it without the knowledge to do it.
 
Vader your profile say's that you are an Electrician but can you just confirm at what level you are IE Qualifications, how many years of experience, what area of the industry you specialise in. Whilst we are all here to help fellow Electricians Englishman does raise a valid point, are you qualified,competent and experienced enough to be doing inspection & Testing, This used to be an area for the cream of the crop and would only be attempted after many years of cutting your teeth in the game, now sadly it seems far too many guys are jumping straight into it without the knowledge to do it.

I don't mean to keep putting people down, as I know we all start somewhere, but these people are a danger to themselves and the public, and certainly should not be charging people to work on their electrics.
 
All I ask is that members keep it civil and don't start insulting new members ( which I am not accusing anyone of by the way ) But lets see what the op replies with and try and help him from there.
 
I have possibly insulted one in the past but that was more of a blunt statement of fact than a nasty insult. I do sympathise with the poor people who have been mislead by their short course training providers about exactly how much they'll learn, and that's a problem with the system which I won't go into again, but some of the people who are going out to work are woefully under prepared and with nowhere near the knowledge required.
 
I honestly think that a lot of these posts are a mischievous wind up.
 
Hi, thanks for your replies, sorry if i wasn't more clear about my experience/qualifications, i will try to explain a little.

I couldn't get on an apprenticeship scheme, but my boss said he would take me on if i was prepared to pay for all my qualifications myself and do the leg work setting everything up etc. I have done the city and guilds 2351 one day a week in college, and the 17th edition course. I have also completed the 2356 NVQ (this has been the most expensive part so far), . I haven't completed the 2392 yet, but i have enrolled on it, payed my fees and bought some meter's, which is one of the reasons why i am practising my inspecting, testing and certification.

The installation is one we have done recently, and i am lucky enough to be able to get access to it to practice inspection and testing. My boss took me through the process quite a few times, but i don't mind admitting i still find filling out the certificates a bit confusing. Im not getting paid to issues the certificates my boss is issuing them, in fact i basically get paid a labourers wage and i mainly have to practice inspecting and testing on my own time as it were, which is fine as it is all part of my training process and the main way i can get experience inspecting and testing.

We mainly do domestic and commercial work, with some occasional industrial work. Once i have completed the 2392, i hope to eventually get my full ECS card and then hopefully recoup some of the money i have spent out on my qualifications, books etc. I have been working in the industry for about 4 years, working my way up from basic labouring to installation work, i know i won't be the finished article until i get full JIB grading but i am on the right track to get there and hopefully it will all be worth it in the end lol.

Im sorry if my questions were stupid, and if i asked to many of them, i was just looking for a little guidance as after spending hours looking through BS7671, OSG, GN3, NICEIC inspecting testing and certification, and of course google lol i wasn't finding all the answers i was looking for. One of my big problems is I'm dyslexic which is why i ended up working with my hands in the first place, as a result i don't always trust what i am reading especially when it comes to tables so i seek reassurance about what i have read, which more often than not just creates more confusion, its a vicious circle haha.

Although i have been involved with inspecting and testing a few times in the past, essentially i am new to inspecting and testing, but it is something i want to understand properly and to be able to do well. `The only way for me to do that is to keep reading, practising, and completing the 2392. Not being used to filling out the EIR i am struggling with it a little and finding it a bit confusing, but I'm determined with enough practice i can get my head round it eventually.

Any help you can give me to the questions i am unsure of would be much appreciated.

Thanks
 
If you need help understanding what is written on the reports and paperwork, and your boss isn't prepared to talk you through it, try and get the paperwork from one of his tests, and look at it while looking at the installation, maybe even write what it says on the paperwork, and wrote your laymans description next to it, sort of like a little key so that you can understand it.
 
Your boss really should be telling you this information before asking you to do the work, even if you are just training.
It is worth asking him to clarify but these ideas below may also help
1. The Supply characteristics for the main fuse can be difficult to identify if it is not clearly labelled then put NV for not verified.
If it only says 60A then put type as not verified and rating as labelled as 60A
I find the majority of fuses are BS1361 (which is now BS88-3), the rest are BS88-2.
Do not bother with enquiring they will not know.
2. Generally the protective measure is ADS, if there are sections of the installation that do not use ADS (not very common at all) then those protective measures should also be noted e.g. SELV
3. The main switch is the first switch isolating the installation from a supply (may be difficult to find in industrial)
The OSG specifies the main switch as the CU switch but BS7671 indicates that it is the isolator from the supply.
In this case I would use the 40A switch fuse, but you would need to characterise the RCD in the schedule of test results.
4. If other methods rather than ADS are used as the sole protective measure for a part of the installation then you would identify where that sole protective measure is used. E.g. a shaver socket in the bathroom would be electrical separation for one item of equipment. Location would be bathroom.
SELV is unlikely to be in use.
5. There are two sections for the installation test results one with a single distribution circuit in SWA and one for the two circuits in the garage. Each ought to be separately listed. (I usually combine such a small section on one sheet but your forms may not have that flexibility).
6. You have the disconnection times correct.
7. Buried in ducting is the most onerous installation method so would be D
8. The distribution circuit serves one point
9. If there is no RCD protection then N/A is appropriate
10. Nominal values for BS1361 (replaced with BS88-3) fuses do not cover 40A but manufacturers make them so the manufacturers data for that fuse is appropriate to use but remember that they may not be amendment 3 values which are 5% lower to take account of Cmin at 0.95.
11. The EFLI values are correct.
12. if you have done R1+R2 then R2 is not necessary.
13. Zs is a live test but the method you describe is measuring a dead test of R1+R2, where you do take the highest reading for that circuit as R1+R2.
Your meter measured value of Zs can differ significantly from the calculated worst case value of adding Ze to R1+R2.
The measured value of Zs is just that, the value of Zs you measure with your meter on a live installation.
 
Hi, thanks for your replies, sorry if i wasn't more clear about my experience/qualifications, i will try to explain a little.

I couldn't get on an apprenticeship scheme, but my boss said he would take me on if i was prepared to pay for all my qualifications myself and do the leg work setting everything up etc. I have done the city and guilds 2351 one day a week in college, and the 17th edition course. I have also completed the 2356 NVQ (this has been the most expensive part so far), . I haven't completed the 2392 yet, but i have enrolled on it, payed my fees and bought some meter's, which is one of the reasons why i am practising my inspecting, testing and certification.

The installation is one we have done recently, and i am lucky enough to be able to get access to it to practice inspection and testing. My boss took me through the process quite a few times, but i don't mind admitting i still find filling out the certificates a bit confusing. Im not getting paid to issues the certificates my boss is issuing them, in fact i basically get paid a labourers wage and i mainly have to practice inspecting and testing on my own time as it were, which is fine as it is all part of my training process and the main way i can get experience inspecting and testing.

We mainly do domestic and commercial work, with some occasional industrial work. Once i have completed the 2392, i hope to eventually get my full ECS card and then hopefully recoup some of the money i have spent out on my qualifications, books etc. I have been working in the industry for about 4 years, working my way up from basic labouring to installation work, i know i won't be the finished article until i get full JIB grading but i am on the right track to get there and hopefully it will all be worth it in the end lol.

Im sorry if my questions were stupid, and if i asked to many of them, i was just looking for a little guidance as after spending hours looking through BS7671, OSG, GN3, NICEIC inspecting testing and certification, and of course google lol i wasn't finding all the answers i was looking for. One of my big problems is I'm dyslexic which is why i ended up working with my hands in the first place, as a result i don't always trust what i am reading especially when it comes to tables so i seek reassurance about what i have read, which more often than not just creates more confusion, its a vicious circle haha.

Although i have been involved with inspecting and testing a few times in the past, essentially i am new to inspecting and testing, but it is something i want to understand properly and to be able to do well. `The only way for me to do that is to keep reading, practising, and completing the 2392. Not being used to filling out the EIR i am struggling with it a little and finding it a bit confusing, but I'm determined with enough practice i can get my head round it eventually.

Any help you can give me to the questions i am unsure of would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Seems to me that you're going about things in a decent way. Although your employer doesn't seem to be offering the a great deal of help in the learning curve, at least you are in a position of being employed and having opportunity to learn. Completing your T+I will be of great assistance. Good luck, I'm sure you've learnt a great deal having read the replies.
 

Reply to Inspecting and Testing in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

Electrical Forum

Welcome to the Electrical Forum at ElectriciansForums.net. The friendliest electrical forum online. General electrical questions and answers can be found in the electrical forum.
This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by Untold Media. Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock