Leaving Rings behind going Radials ????

[Robinson]

Just pondering as a lecturer mentioned to me ideally that industry would like to phase Rings out and go down just the radial route in domestic environment

How do you guys feel? any of you already really trying to go down this rd..? say the kitchen for appliances on separate 16amp supplies. or anywhere else come to mention it.

Obviously in these times in could be more costly but is it better in the long run????
IMO much better but maybe unrealistic for many jobs.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

I fit radials whenever possible. I generally only use rings in kitchens and utility rooms, and this is because i prefer to terminate 2 2.5's into sockets instead of 2 4mm's. IMO radials are safer and easier to fault find on as well.

Cheers.........Howard

 

[BillyTheSparks]

I'm doing a renovation at the moment and I'm wiring all the bedrooms on seperate radials, I will split the ground floor in to two or three radials. And I'll probably use a ring in the kitchen with radials for certain appliances.

 

[rocker]

I do radials in 2.5 to attics or joined garages, and in 4mm to kitchens sometimes, all if it's more convenient to do so. Personally I love ring circuits

 

[Guest123]

Long live the ring final!

 

[nickblake]

Just put 2 radials in the house ive rewired 8 sockets on each 2.5mm cable 20 amp MCB Zs reading 0.86 , it was either that or try and drill through a 4 meter thick stone wall ring in lounge and kitchen do like radials i have to say just need some bigger boards

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I prefer RFCs to Radials.

 

[Robinson]

Interesting to hear your views ! i just done Kitchen dining knock through. done each fixed appliance on radial (5 app's), sep cooker supply and a ring for the above work surface sockets . For some reason even though more cable it felt a whole lot easier. might of been a placebo effect though

Really though it has cost fair bit more...can see it good for future proofing. The main reason i heard the leaning towards was pure the safety aspect
to many DIYer's breaking rings making birds nests.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Just put 2 radials in the house ive rewired 8 sockets on each 2.5mm cable 20 amp MCB Zs reading 0.86 , it was either that or try and drill through a 4 meter thick stone wall ring in lounge and kitchen do like radials i have to say just need some bigger boards

What are you trying to say......got no balls 4 meters thick, in Yorkshire we scratch our way through thicker I thought all the Welsh were hard

Cheers.........Howard

 

[nickblake]

What are you trying to say......got no balls 4 meters thick, in Yorkshire we scratch our way through thicker I thought all the Welsh were hard

Cheers.........Howard

well the welsh are quite tough no as tough as the rock mind ,burnt out 2 25mm 1meter drill bits and 2 300 mm 25mm drill bits , took for ever and got home with swolen hands and the teeth were vibrating think my head was squashed due to the ear protection or was it i was doing an impression of micky mouse with them i cant remeber lol

 

[Robinson]

in Yorkshire we scratch our way through thicker::

Cheers.........Howard

LOL priceless

 

[oldtimer]

Its not if the do away with rings its when because its the only thing left to get us in line with Europe is the ring main remember it was brought out to save on the size of DBs so house have now went from a 2 way (1 light 1 power) to 4 way then 6-8 now 10-12

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I think rings are used when not necessary..... like bedrooms etc.

But they will always have a place.

How can they remove / outlaw them ? There are many things you can do that are not specifically mentioned in the regs

 

[Electricalserv]

The problem is if there is a fault on a ring it is near on impossible To tell without investigation and they only usually turn up on a PIR. With a radial if there us a fault it's always noticable because of the farther sockets not working. Meaning they are much safer. Radials are the way forward

 

[rocker]

What are you trying to say......got no balls 4 meters thick, in Yorkshire we scratch our way through thicker I thought all the Welsh were hard

Cheers.........Howard

In the South we are. I'd have 'made love' through that thickness lol

 

[Deleted member 26818]

In the South we are. I'd have 'made love' through that thickness lol

Is that why sheep pen walls are 6 meters thick in Wales?

 

[Robinson]

The problem is if there is a fault on a ring it is near on impossible To tell without investigation and they only usually turn up on a PIR. With a radial if there us a fault it's always noticable because of the farther sockets not working. Meaning they are much safer. Radials are the way forward

Yeah this is the point we discussed with Lecture. Prob is people in general and building contractors just dont seem to grasp these developments. ive had it up to my eyes with people who when i try to install with such designs i get hassle. the " oh why dont you just throw a ring in. I could do that in half the time you taken and its much cheaper". this mentality.. Actually im gonna start a thread on this......moan.

 

[Engineer54]

There is a place for Ring circuits and a place for radial circuits, they can both serve it's purpose in a well thought out installation design. This old chestnut of doing away with ring circuits crops up all the time, more so these days, probably with the introduction of these new Domestic installers.... The advantages of rings over an all radial installation far outweigh the radial approach, in both time and costs of an overall installation. Our domestic house layouts, in most cases, do not or cannot accommodate much larger CUs, and i'm pretty sure most home owners wouldn't want them either.

Now to say a radial power circuit is safer than a ring circuit beggars belief!! Since when has radial circuits been a new development?? I've heard all the arguments of doing away with rings, and frankly there not worth the paper there written on. ...Harmonisation with Europe, .... No thanks let them stick to there own circuit designs, and we'll stick with ours, besides it's about time they started to adopt some of our methods, instead of us always seeming to bow to there's!! ...lol!!!!

 

[truckster]

Now to say a radial power circuit is safer than a ring circuit beggars belief!!

Can't agree. Ring circuits are always prone to the DIY'er or pillock who will div up a ring leaving multiple crossovers or one leg with half the sockets on. Radials are safer in that most faults become apparent very readily.

Re: Harmonisation..I can agree with that!!! Is it just me or does the change to black/brown/grey just make it easier to connect something wrong? Why change from bright obvious colours to something that all looks the same in the gloom of a cupbard or loft?

 

[oldtimer]

Harmonisation you can keep it I hear you say but the reality is that it will not be Europe that pushes to get rid of the ring it will be bureaucrats in this country will change it by stealth and they will try convince us we have to do it or in other words just when we all get comfortable with the changes they will jump in why ? because that is the nature of their job they need to survive plus they need to be in control put them together and we will get this change for the sake of change only problem is that Cameron is saying that we have too much regulation but me thinks this will fall on deaf ears and this will lead to people ignoring the rules.

If anyone remembers the Yes Minisiter episode where the head civil servant says we must fight to save the British Banger from Europe the Minister replies but their not going to do that yes says the civil servant but the people dont know that and we need to make them think they are being threatened so that when Europe does try to ban it they will accept it as progress

 

[Electricalserv]

Can't agree. Ring circuits are always prone to the DIY'er or pillock who will div up a ring leaving multiple crossovers or one leg with half the sockets on. Radials are safer in that most faults become apparent very readily.

This all day long. The sooner we all recognise this the better.

 

[Engineer54]

Can't agree. Ring circuits are always prone to the DIY'er or pillock who will div up a ring leaving multiple crossovers or one leg with half the sockets on. Radials are safer in that most faults become apparent very readily.

Absolute tosh!! So now we are governed by what a DIY'er may or may not do are we??? And, ....I suppose they don't add or muck about with radials then do they??....

Never heard such lame excuses for the abolition of one of the most versatile circuits at an electricians disposal. Some would actually rather install a radial circuit for each bedroom, when one ring would be more than capable of looking after all of them, and then some!!!

No, i believe the real reason behind wanting to get rid of the ring, is the testing procedure required, that and the lack of fault finding skills when a problem does occur, due those necessary skills not being taught anymore on these joke trade courses and the like.
As Lenny stated in an earlier post on this thread ....''Long Live The Ring Circuit''

 

[SMB]

Im all for the radial circuit.

it beats trying to do the ring final continuity test.......

simples.

 

[telectrix]

IMO, there's a place for both. 3 bedrooms, 4 S/O in total.... radial. 4 S/O for kitchen appliances.... ring final. each installation should be designed on it's merits, allowing for increased loading i future.

 

[SMB]

Perhaps what we need is a bigger mains cupboard in the governmental funded housing association new builds?

grin.

 

[accordfire]

There's arguments for and against ring finals - and, they've probably all been done on here several times.

Bottom line - in my very humble opinion, of course - ring final circuits have a place, as do radials. It is, and should always be, a design issue.

I personally prefer the idea of a ring final where demand is likely to vary across the circuit - and think that while it is EASIER to fault find on radial circuits, that alone does NOT make them inherrently safer in any way. They are safer in terms of isolation, for sure - no chance (you'd think) of a feed being energised if the breaker is locked off....so long as Mr Weekender hasn't inadvertently linked two radials together (seen that!).

Ultimately, it is a complete and utter waste of time arguing whether or not ring final should be abolished - in any case, we won't stop seeing them for at least another 60 years (ballpark) by the time every installation has been upgraded - so it isn't really an argument for OUR lifetimes - but also, as said it is a design issue, and really, has very little to do with which is better in general terms - they both have a place, and a safe, proper application.

The REAL argument, IMO, should be about qualification - safety - and protecting idiot homeowners from themselves.

That kind of brings us right back to the whole licencing issue - which is where we ought to be putting in the effort.

 

[millwall ken]

I do radials in 2.5 to attics or joined garages, and in 4mm to kitchens sometimes, all if it's more convenient to do so. Personally I love ring circuits

Hi Rocker mate, excuse my ignorance (I DO commercial remember) but why the radials in 2.5? I thought that it was a requirement for radials to be in 4mm. I know that you can use a smaller csa for cables on a ring obviously but I was always taught that its 4mm for a radial....

 

[telectrix]

4mm for a 32A radial. lightly loaded circuits 2.5mm on a 16A or 20A.

 

[millwall ken]

4mm for a 32A radial. lightly loaded circuits 2.5mm on a 16A or 20A.

This is WHY I was taugh to do radials in 4mm mate.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Millwal ken

2.5, 4, depends on design!! U can do a 20A radial (usually) in 2.5

Or a 32A radial in 4.

 

[millwall ken]

Millwal ken

2.5, 4, depends on design!! U can do a 20A radial (usually) in 2.5

Or a 32A radial in 4.

Chears fella

 

[electromonkey]

IMO, there's a place for both. 3 bedrooms, 4 S/O in total.... radial. 4 S/O for kitchen appliances.... ring final. each installation should be designed on it's merits, allowing for increased loading i future.

Absolutely! This is part of an electricians job. DESIGN and installation.

 

[davelerave]

both-depending on

we've got tighter rules on ring finals over here(ROI) than the UK as well

 

[Engineer54]

both-depending on we've got tighter rules on ring finals over here(ROI) than the UK as well

Can you enlighten us on these tighter rules in the ROI?? ...I'd be interested to know what they are.

 

[truckster]

Absolute tosh!! So now we are governed by what a DIY'er may or may not do are we??? And, ....I suppose they don't add or muck about with radials then do they??....

To some extent we are, that's why we are the pros and the public are 'ordinary people' Part of our job is to protect the public from themselves. It is more likely that a ring cct will be abused to a dangerous degree than a radial.
I am not saying don't use rings, I use them for kitchens because of the loading but you are going to find that radials are coming

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I have, in the past, fitted a kitchen ring (ring), in 4mm2. Yes thats right. Not in the book that one. Like lots of other things you can do if you wish!

Main reason was person it was for had a load in garage so used it. Zs figures were nice

No chance of an overload there.... (on a 32a mcb)

 

[Engineer54]

To some extent we are, that's why we are the pros and the public are 'ordinary people' Part of our job is to protect the public from themselves. It is more likely that a ring cct will be abused to a dangerous degree than a radial.
I am not saying don't use rings, I use them for kitchens because of the loading but you are going to find that radials are coming

I know what your saying here, But you can't protect against all the idiots and fools in this life. We have more than enough responsibility on our shoulders, to take on anymore, especially this type of responsibility. So i can't agree at all, with having DIY'ers dictate in any way the design criteria and installation of circuits in a installation...

All circuits whether Ring or radial, should be based purely on the sound design of the needs of that installation. Like others here i have nothing against using either, i just don't agree with ditching a perfectly sound and a proved circuit design, just for the sake of it, laziness or through lack of skill. .....And definitely not on the basis of what a DIY'er may or may not do at a later date, that's the DIY'ers responsibility not the electricians.

It's not just rings they play around with either, i've seen almost every s/outlet in a small sized 30's house supplied by a single radial circuit, and when the MCB tripped a few times with each additional outlet so the MCB got changed for a higher rating, ...that was before his house nearly burnt down. Long story, but this particular guy actually rewired his house replacing like for like as he went along. 1 x lighting circuit, 1 x c/u, 2 x radial circuits in a 6 way MCB CU. Never bothered to utilise the two spare ways in the CU either!!! Like i say, you just cannot protect against idiots like this,...they will always win, ..or should i say lose!! lol!!!

 

[Robinson]

I know what your saying here, But you can't protect against all the idiots and fools in this life. We have more than enough responsibility on our shoulders, to take on anymore, especially this type of responsibility. So i can't agree at all, with having DIY'ers dictate in any way the design criteria and installation of circuits in a installation...

All circuits whether Ring or radial, should be based purely on the sound design of the needs of that installation. Like others here i have nothing against using either, i just don't agree with ditching a perfectly sound and a proved circuit design, just for the sake of it, laziness or through lack of skill. .....And definitely not on the basis of what a DIY'er may or may not do at a later date, that's the DIY'ers responsibility not the electricians.

It's not just rings they play around with either, i've seen almost every s/outlet in a small sized 30's house supplied by a single radial circuit, and when the MCB tripped a few times with each additional outlet so the MCB got changed for a higher rating, ...that was before his house nearly burnt down. Long story, but this particular guy actually rewired his house replacing like for like as he went along. 1 x lighting circuit, 1 x c/u, 2 x radial circuits in a 6 way MCB CU. Never bothered to utilise the two spare ways in the CU either!!! Like i say, you just cannot protect against idiots like this,...they will always win, ..or should i say lose!! lol!!!

Yes i have to agree here, no matter whether they phase out or not. we still going to have lunatics doing these thoughtless jobs whether the owner DIY OR a non comp cowboy.

I do think in gen Radials should be brought into the design maybe alittle more often, but certainly as engineer says dont think rings should be outted because of the twits out there. they are going to be twits regardless.

"All circuits whether Ring or radial, should be based purely on the sound design of the needs of that installation" AGREE.

 

[davelerave]

Can you enlighten us on these tighter rules in the ROI?? ...I'd be interested to know what they are.

for 13amp socket circuits

-no unfused spurs

-no rings serving kitchens

 

[Engineer54]

What's the reasoning behind ''No ring circuits in Kitchens''?? I would have thought a Ring circuit in a kitchen is an ideal design consideration, considering the differing types of load etc!!