W

Welchyboy

hey

Im at the point where im struggling to stay under the VAT limit and im thinking of buying a new van in the next few months so i will need to shortly register for VAT, has any of you lads who do a fair bit of domestic work had problems with the extra hassle or cost to the customer? or has it worked out better for you!
I have tried to avoid it up to now cause all i get on nearly every job is the old 'can you do it cheaper for cash mate'
Although I would think commercial customers would be no problem

Anyone?
 
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We work for a local taxi / mini bus company that has "multiple" companies, and each one manages to stay under the VAT threshold.

ABC Mini Buses Ltd
ABC Taxies Ltd
ABC Mini Cabs Ltd
BC Taxies Ltd
etc
(ABC is JUST an example, I HAVE changed the name.)
I think they up to about 5 or 6 companies... You never know which on to charge the job to!

I'm not suggesting they do this to avoid VAT ;-) or that you should as I'm not sure of the legality.
 
We work for a local taxi / mini bus company that has "multiple" companies, and each one manages to stay under the VAT threshold.

ABC Mini Buses Ltd
ABC Taxies Ltd
ABC Mini Cabs Ltd
BC Taxies Ltd
etc
(ABC is JUST an example, I HAVE changed the name.)
I think they up to about 5 or 6 companies... You never know which on to charge the job to!

I'm not suggesting they do this to avoid VAT ;-) or that you should as I'm not sure of the legality.

The legality is you can't do that as a sole trader as it's YOU that's registered rather than a company.

VAT ruins our domestic pricing but that's not always a bad thing, it seems to leave us with a better class of customer (I know that sounds awful).
 
how easy is it to un-register? say if you register and realise its costing you work

I was speaking to a builder the other week about this, and he was saying that if you were to be VAT registered, then decide not to. HMRC or whoever it is can reclaim the VAT that hasn't been paid to them etc.

Not sure if this is entirely right, but I'm sure someone on here will put me straight.
 
It's not such a bad thing. If your not VAT registered, then you still have to pay for your materials gross and pass that cost onto your customer. When your VAT registered, your price increase will only be 20% extra on your labour rate but you get the advantage of claiming back the VAT on materials, fuel, van etc.

e.g if your not VAT registered:

Materials £100 + VAT = £120 (what you pay at the wholesalers)
Labour £100 = £100

Total for job = £220



VAT registered

Materials = £100
Labour = £100
(VAT) = £40
Total for job = £240

Also claim back 20% on all your fuel, vehicles, tools, clothes, anything to do with the business. You may loose the odd job, but you may end up with more money in your pocket? Best thing is to work out your outgoings and incomings and see what's best for your situation.
 
To be honest ponty the more i think about it the more i think i will get registered, its not as bad when you think of the benefits as well and as was mentioned here before it will maybe get rid of some of the customers that you can maybe do without, also when i do them little odd jobs on the way home for £30 hopefully they wont be so quick to go for the chequebook when i tell them it will then be + vat
the builders i work for are vat any way, does that mean they wont have to stop my CIS tax then cause that it a pain in the --- too
 
To be honest ponty the more i think about it the more i think i will get registered, its not as bad when you think of the benefits as well and as was mentioned here before it will maybe get rid of some of the customers that you can maybe do without, also when i do them little odd jobs on the way home for £30 hopefully they wont be so quick to go for the chequebook when i tell them it will then be + vat
the builders i work for are vat any way, does that mean they wont have to stop my CIS tax then cause that it a pain in the --- too

No, your CIS will not change.
 
It's not such a bad thing. If your not VAT registered, then you still have to pay for your materials gross and pass that cost onto your customer. When your VAT registered, your price increase will only be 20% extra on your labour rate but you get the advantage of claiming back the VAT on materials, fuel, van etc.

e.g if your not VAT registered:

Materials £100 + VAT = £120 (what you pay at the wholesalers)
Labour £100 = £100

Total for job = £220



VAT registered

Materials = £100
Labour = £100
(VAT) = £40
Total for job = £240

Also claim back 20% on all your fuel, vehicles, tools, clothes, anything to do with the business. You may loose the odd job, but you may end up with more money in your pocket? Best thing is to work out your outgoings and incomings and see what's best for your situation.


Am I right in thinking when you do your VAT return, this then offsets against your Tax return?
e.g. simplified if you owe £3000 tax and your claiming £1000 back VAT then you really owe £2000???
 
No, same authority, entirely different taxes.

The VAT that you've charged customers is paid to R&C minus the VAT that you've paid on business purchases.

You're an unpaid tax collector.
 
Threshold was 68,500 and I think it went up........If you become VAT Registered IE your turnover (including parts and materials- not your profits) goes over the threshold then you become Liable for VAT at the rate of 20% on all your turnover for the past 12 months, so if you make for your business (put into your business account, not all going on wages to you but even just into your business account) say maybe £ 40, 000 over 11 months, and then somebody says "fit me this marble kitchen, you order it and I will pay you back" and the marble kitchen for example, or office furniture, or building materials etc etc costs £40,000 to buy, you end up having to VAT register and pay full VAT on the lot, which means VAT on the £40,000 materials for that one job, which you pass on to the rather un-amused customer....and the £40,000 turnover that you brought into your little business account in the last 11 months(and mostly went out on bills and expenses/small wages to you) becomes VAT Liable at 20% as well, so thats a bill for £8, 000 for that as well and you better pay up right now thanks very much....
This is because as far as the TAX man is concerned your turnover has just hit £80,000 and he is not interested in your hardship or the fact that you never saw very much of this, he just wants to grab the money because he can do anything he wants to you and you have less than no rights, even if it is his/her mistake/error....
You cant go back to customers and ask for back dated VAT as they have every right to say no, and believe me they will say no and laugh at you, it falls onto you, and the tax man can take your house, car, savings and even your tools and you will be court order bankrupted, I have even heard of cases where they have pursued for TAX owed and managed to close child trust funds and empty them of funds to cover the mother / Fathers Tax...they can crush any one of us like a fly.

I knew an electrician a few years ago who got into trouble with this, he was doing OK running a small business doing emergency light installation and maintenance, and took on a lad to work with him, he paid the lad cash and just billed it onto his customers almost like the lad was a sub contractor and he was dealing with all the finances for him.....he was not VAT registered and just put through his side of the wages and the materials thinking he was in the clear as the other lad was self employed.....well he did a job for a Farmer for about £6,000 for 4 weeks work for him and the other person(including materials) and the farmer asked for a receipt "for his records to remind him what he spent where and when" he hastily scribbled out a carbon paper docket and gave it to him....and the farmer put it in to his accountant who then attempted to write it off against capital allowances....as 50% of the money was not notified on his own tax self assessment and he was paying the other man 50% of everything in cash (other man self employed and supposed to do own tax, so he thought that this was ok and didnt fully understand VAT rules) the TAX man did an ivestigation into his business takings , turned round and said "I think that YOU owe ME £71,000 in backdated VAT".......he managed to beg the taxman not to flatten him and was allowed to pay all that he could afford and keep his house, which was about £22,000 of it, with the provision that he would wind up his business and not start another one for a few years as part of the agreement, as this allowed the tax man to close the case against his business...
He went books in with a company and never started up on his own again, this all happened because he thought he was doing the lad a favour by collecting his wages/payment for him at the same time as his own on one invoice and passing it on to him, basically he was putting through 2 peoples wages through one small business along with the materials and parts used and this pushed it over the VAT threshold, when the TAX man couldnt figure out what was where he just went for the throat and made up a figure that he felt was suitable...


If you are going to end up VAT registering, you will owe 20% on everything earned since the start for the Tax year, I have had quite a few arguments with different people who got really really angry as they were convinced that you only needed to pay VAT on any amount over the threshold, this is wrong, you have to pay VAT on ALL turnover for the year leading up to registering as well, take a look on HMRC website and you will see this...
 
What rubbish!
So you register for VAT and immediately become liable for VAT before you hit the threshold?

I wonder why I bother posting links!
 
In terms of taking money that you have put into savings/a trust fund for your childerns future, they will seize this money if you owe tax as even though it is in the childs name, it is not legally classed as theirs until they reach their 18th birthday, and it is classed as YOUR money sitting with a custodian (Trustee/Lawyer/Bank/Building Society) for a future legally processed gift/endowment to a child/young adult, in which case they assume that you are trying to hide your cash by putting it into the childrens account/Bonds....they see this as trying to avoid paying debts to them (or assumed debts to them) by moving money around and consider the possibility that you may manage to retrieve that money in the future, which with many of these trusts can be done, I know this because when I was a Student, a friend of mine was presented with the documents for a trust fund that he never knew he had, and upon sending them into the bank got a letter back stating that the trust fund had been closed out in 1993 and all monies withdrawn.....bummer as he thought he was due a few thousand..
Apparently his old granddad had started the fund and was putting in money for years, he had named one of the fellows Aunts as an additional signatory (to take over running the trust fund until the boy reached age 18 if anything happened to him) and she had went in, closed it, drew out all the money and went on an allmighty pss up and Holiday bender while the boy was still in his early years at high school...he never found out until 2000 a whole seven years after it was arsed...and he was a skint student..
 
I know this because when I was a Student, a friend of mine was presented with the documents for a trust fund that he never knew he had, and upon sending them into the bank got a letter back stating that the trust fund had been closed out in 1993 and all monies withdrawn.....bummer as he thought he was due a few thousand..
Apparently his old granddad had started the fund and was putting in money for years, he had named one of the fellows Aunts as an additional signatory (to take over running the trust fund until the boy reached age 18 if anything happened to him) and she had went in, closed it, drew out all the money and went on an allmighty pss up and Holiday bender while the boy was still in his early years at high school...he never found out until 2000 a whole seven years after it was arsed...and he was a skint student..

Whats that got to do with it?
 
will you customers wish to pay the VAT?
I know many that will close the door on ANYONE trying to charge them VAT. I also know someone who had a terrible time with the VAT man,. they wanted his blood and the blood from his children,. they are evil to the point of barbaric . Unless you can safely earn 40% over the threshold i would give it a wide birth. I stay well away from turning over the the thresh hold. But I am lucky as most of my "materials" belong to the clients . I just fit etc .
 
What rubbish!
So you register for VAT and immediately become liable for VAT before you hit the threshold?

I wonder why I bother posting links!



NO you are obviously not reading this properly, you dont become liable until you hit the threshold, but when you do hit the threshold and register, you owe money in VAT for the earlier part of the year that you register, ie you dont just pay VAT on money from after the date of registering, you owe for that whole TAX year....so you have to find money to cover the VAT for the work you did earlier that year, and as you never collected the VAT at the time of earning/collecting those monies from the customers/clients, you have to give it to the Taxman from your own funds...:mad:
 
In terms of taking money that you have put into savings/a trust fund for your childerns future, they will seize this money if you owe tax as even though it is in the childs name, it is not legally classed as theirs until they reach their 18th birthday, and it is classed as YOUR money sitting with a custodian (Trustee/Lawyer/Bank/Building Society) for a future legally processed gift/endowment to a child/young adult, in which case they assume that you are trying to hide your cash by putting it into the childrens account/Bonds....they see this as trying to avoid paying debts to them (or assumed debts to them) by moving money around and consider the possibility that you may manage to retrieve that money in the future, which with many of these trusts can be done, I know this because when I was a Student, a friend of mine was presented with the documents for a trust fund that he never knew he had, and upon sending them into the bank got a letter back stating that the trust fund had been closed out in 1993 and all monies withdrawn.....bummer as he thought he was due a few thousand..
Apparently his old granddad had started the fund and was putting in money for years, he had named one of the fellows Aunts as an additional signatory (to take over running the trust fund until the boy reached age 18 if anything happened to him) and she had went in, closed it, drew out all the money and went on an allmighty pss up and Holiday bender while the boy was still in his early years at high school...he never found out until 2000 a whole seven years after it was arsed...and he was a skint student..



Good for her !!
 
NO you are obviously not reading this properly, you dont become liable until you hit the threshold, but when you do hit the threshold and register, you owe money in VAT for the earlier part of the year that you register, ie you dont just pay VAT on money from after the date of registering, you owe for that whole TAX year....so you have to find money to cover the VAT for the work you did earlier that year, and as you never collected the VAT at the time of earning/collecting those monies from the customers/clients, you have to give it to the Taxman from your own funds...:mad:

Absolute rubbish!!! Read the information in the link and stop posting such drivel please!
 
I never want to get on the wrong side of the Tax man, I'd rather overpay than have them chasing me for money, I just read that they can go back 20 years now, and I think it used to be 7 years, and I also read in todays paper that they are going to be coming down on all kinds of tradesmen and starting investigations into people they think are working cash in hand (doing homers) so no doubt they will start pestering everybody who is in the construction trades....
 
I never want to get on the wrong side of the Tax man, I'd rather overpay than have them chasing me for money, I just read that they can go back 20 years now, and I think it used to be 7 years, and I also read in todays paper that they are going to be coming down on all kinds of tradesmen and starting investigations into people they think are working cash in hand (doing homers) so no doubt they will start pestering everybody who is in the construction trades....

They can't 'come down hard' if you pay what you owe!

Is there some vendetta going on between you and Revenue & Customs?

I'll say what I always say on these forums, I just want to stick to the facts and not opinion and myth.

What you posted regarding registering for VAT and then having to pay for the previous 12 months is absolutely not true, why don't you read the information and admit you were wrong, for the benefit of everyone reading this thread in the future?

Do you believe that once you hit the high rate of income tax that you are then taxed at 40% on everything you earned in the previous 12 months?
It's a similar principle and just as silly!
 
Ive just read the hmrc website and the threshold is £68k. I think what grant is trying to say is if you don't register and don't charge vat from the start of the financial year but go over the threshold in the last couple of months of that year they will charge for that full year and not just the 2 months that you are over. Could be very costly. But on the flip side you can claim the vat that you have paid in that financial year to offset your bill.

The hmrc website is not as easy to read as they say it is but a very good link and at the end of the day we can call them and ask.
 
The threshold is £70,000.

I've registered 2 businesses for VAT as the threshold was in sight and can guarantee you that they do not then say 'right, you owe VAT on your last 12 months sales!'

Just think about it and read the information again!

Then read the first 'paragraph' of post 17.
 
I asked my brother about this he is a chartered accountant and he said you register for vat before you hit £70,000 then you must start charging 20% on labour but you cant put it as VAT on your invoice till you get a vat number, then you just save it as you will have to pay this money over from the day you register, they wont bill you for the whole year or go back on your invoicing unless they find you have been earning over £70,000 before you register, oh and its not £ 70,000 per account year its £70,000 over any 12 consecutive months so dont get caught out!!!
 
I asked my brother about this he is a chartered accountant and he said you register for vat before you hit £70,000 then you must start charging 20% on labour but you cant put it as VAT on your invoice till you get a vat number, then you just save it as you will have to pay this money over from the day you register, they wont bill you for the whole year or go back on your invoicing unless they find you have been earning over £70,000 before you register, oh and its not £ 70,000 per account year its £70,000 over any 12 consecutive months so dont get caught out!!!

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
 
Got the Tax mans business card here from office, am going to phone him tomorrow and ask about what the peculiarities of the current VAT system are, he will put me right...
 
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I'm not busy enough to have to worry about vat as my turnover would have to more than double for me to have to worry about it.

What I encourage is to get the client to go to the wholesaler and but the materials and I provide labour. I do this if the materials are more than a few hundred.
It helps as the client sees how dear the materials have now become.

It is especially good with showers as if the item goes ---- up then the client bought it and not you (and they are liable to deal with any repair issues and you didn't supply it)
 
I'm not busy enough to have to worry about vat as my turnover would have to more than double for me to have to worry about it.

What I encourage is to get the client to go to the wholesaler and but the materials and I provide labour. I do this if the materials are more than a few hundred.
It helps as the client sees how dear the materials have now become.

It is especially good with showers as if the item goes ---- up then the client bought it and not you (and they are liable to deal with any repair issues and you didn't supply it)

Good theory but is it really. What happens when you send the customer to buy a 17th edition board and the wholesalers is 75 pounds and they see that a B & Q one is 55 pound ............and buy that.

So your client is quite happy to schlep all the way down to an wholesaler for you and buy the material, how do they manage lengths of oval tubing in the mini.

You obviously also don't work on a mark up on material, which as always been a standard practice and can in fact cover quite a bit of cost on travel, and paperwork which quite often you don't allow for.

I have to admit I'm not a great lover of clients buying thier own stuff, if it does fail before the year out, invaribly they will call you and that starts a whole new ball game of I'm not covering this, or not covering that, with thier reply that it failed becasue of the way you installed it, MK told me that, it's really not worth the hassle.

If a customer insisted on purchasing their own material, then I would add to my quote that I will not be held responsible if that fails, and make them sign it. You can not do that if the material you suggest the client buys fails, as they will say you recommended it, it's a real minefield IMO
 
I agree with Malcolm, material markup is essential when we're squeezed tight on labour margins etc.
I can't imagine saying 'here's a shopping list' to a client, it's rather unprofessional too.

Don't be afraid of VAT, just learn the facts and some of the advantages to your business.
 
I get the client to buy the stuff if the materials cost is high

I buy my own consumer units and guarantee them, if the client wants me to fit one they have bought I do point out if there are any problems then they are responsible

I offer the client what they want- I had a chap want a 14 way staight rcbo consumer unit (hager) and he said he would order through tlc, saves me at least £350 on my turnover. I will have new tails and other bits and charge accordingly

Don't get me wrong- I prefer to source the stuff myself and fit it, but flexability is the name of the game these days
 

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Mainly domestic; are you VAT registered?
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