Multi way switching using only 1 way switches?

[Trenchdigger]

Hi
My bungalow hall lights can be turned on and off from 4 different switches.
I was expecting these switches to be a mix of 3 way and intermediate switches, but all 4 of them are just 1 way switches.

I now have a problem that my hall lights are permanently turned on, and none of the switches can turn them off.

I have disconnected all 4 switches thinking that 1 of the switches had developed a fault, but even with all 4 disconnected, the light remains on. I assume there must be a short circuit somewhere in the building.

How can I have multi way switching using only 1 way switches?
Any advice on how to find the short circuit?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Spoon]

How are you at fault finding with electrics?
First thing I would do is isolate the circuit for the lights.
If the light has only stayed on since you took the switches off then that will narrow down the fault. Check the switch wires.

I would love to see how the four 1 way switches were wired for the hall light.

 

[Bobster]

Why do I feel like we are missing some information like... "I was doing this work on the electrics, an it all just stopped working"

 

[Spoon]

While you have the power off for the light, how about taking pics of the wiring of the 4 switches and post them up.

 

[Marvo]

Is the light an LED lamp? Is it still on at full brightness when the swqitches are all in the off position?

 

[Trenchdigger]

The only reason I looked at the switches was because the light stayed on. I was expecting to have to replace a switch, and wanted to identify which one had gone faulty, and whether I needed to buy a 3 way or intermediate.
All 4 are intermediate, but only wired with 2 wires so effectively 1 way switches. I can post a photo in a bit, but I don't think it will be very exciting I'm afraid.
I assume there must be some complicated wiring in the loft somewhere to allow these 4 one-ways to all control the same lights like a multi-way. Presumably the short is going to be there as well.
Problem is our loft is a nightmare. Roof pitch is only about 30 degrees, so can't even sit up at the highest point (bungalow is T shaped so very difficult to access all of loft, especially the area behind the water tank) so keen to understand what I might be looking for before embarking on a major search under difficult to reach loft insulation.

 

[Trenchdigger]

There are 2 ceiling light points in the hall, each with 3 standard bulbs (not LED). They remain on full brightness at all times.
The 4 switches are the type with press on them that always sit in the same position, so don't have an off position.

 

[Spoon]

So, just so that my poor small brain can understand:
The hall light used to work, with switching any of the 4 switches?
You didn't have to operate the same switch twice for the light to turn on/off? (long shot... with only being 2 wires per switch someone may have wired up a toggle relay (T flip-flop) in the loft for the hall light and using the switches as pushbuttons)

 

[marconi]

The hall lighting control is using an impulse relay in the loft controlled by the four one way/single pole push for on switches. Every time the push is pressed it creates an impulse ie off -on-off which an impulse relay in the loft uses t0 'toggle' between on and off or off and on. The impulse relay then controls the two hall lamps.

Call an electrician in to fix it.

 

[westward10]

They are retractive switches and as @marconi says this is their likely function.

 

[Spoon]

Wow... I was right...

 

[Taylortwocities]

I would still like to see a pic of one of the switches.

 

[SparkyAndGeorge]

Put a photo of the switch and the wiring on here

 

[Lucien Nunes]

The impulse relay is probably one like this:
Technical Properties EPN510 - https://www.hager.co.uk/product-catalogue/energy-distribution/modular-devices/relays-contactors/latching-relays/epn510/41718.htm

Most likely it is mechanically jammed or its coil O/C. Most brands have a test lever or actuator that you can use to operate it manually. It's just possible there's a fault in the pushbutton wiring.

 

[Trenchdigger]

I have uploaded photos.
3 of the 4 switches are single gang as shown in first 2 photos.
4th switch at entrance to house is 2 gang (photos 3 and 4). The second gang is for an outside porch light which is operating correctly and is unrelated to this problem.

Spoon, you are correct, you didn't have to operate the same switch twice for the light to turn on/off.

The impulse/latching relay explanation makes perfect sense and I will investigate in the loft to see if I can find one.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Looks like the control side is ELV. It could be an electronic control, in which case most likely its output device (SSR, triac) is shorted.

 

[Spoon]

Spoon, you are correct, you didn't have to operate the same switch twice for the light to turn on/off.

The impulse/latching relay explanation makes perfect sense and I will investigate in the loft to see if I can find one

I totally forgot about you could get spring return light switches. (ok may not be the technical name)

I didn't think they they used toggle relays for lighting in houses.. Glad my "long shot" was correct. Every day a learning day.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Much more popular in Europe. E.g. search for 'télérupteur d'éclairage'

 

[Taylortwocities]

Yes. Momentary switches. Did you not wonder why they are marked ‘break’ and ‘make ‘????

If you have disconnected all the switches and the light is still on, then your problem is with the central logic box. Whatever and wherever that might be b

 

[Spoon]

If you have disconnected all the switches and the light is still on, then your problem is with the central logic box. Whatever and wherever that might be

It's "Follow the cables" time...

All cables lead to Rome...