PUB GARDEN ELECTROCUTION TRIAL

[marconi]

romford recorder pub electrician - بحث Google - https://www.google.com/search?q=romford+recorder+pub+electrician&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB822GB822&oq=romford+recorder+pub+electrician&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30j69i64.8373j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Pub owner 'drilled through cables' weeks before child electrocuted - https://www.romfordrecorder.co.uk/news/crime/pub-owner-drilled-through-cables-court-told-7071842

Many folk on the EF will know about the death of a young boy at a pub in Essex because he was electrocuted while playing in the pub's garden. It is front page news at the moment in our local rag.

The first link above takes you to a number of daily reports on the trial of the defendants.

The second is something many of you may not be aware of bearing in mind there are two defendants in the trial.

I am saying no more other than 'food for thought' and may the poor lad RIP Amen.

 

[Raptor0014]

Sombre reading.

I upset a few of the local sparks around here when I advertised on the local faceache page. Purely because they aren't registered as a competent person electrical with anyone.

I didn't name them directly I just put in my advert that I was registered as a competent person with NAPIT and that meant I worked to a certain standard and also mentioned that I was also fully insured and have been DBS & CRB checked.

I can understand an odd job man not being registered. But not an electrician, as you can quite easily kill someone as this article shows.

That poor lad died because of incompetence. RIP

 

[DPG]

Thanks for the links Marconi.

 

[Darkwood]

Sombre reading.

I upset a few of the local sparks around here when I advertised on the local faceache page. Purely because they aren't registered as a competent person electrical with anyone.

I didn't name them directly I just put in my advert that I was registered as a competent person with NAPIT and that meant I worked to a certain standard and also mentioned that I was also fully insured and have been DBS & CRB checked.

I can understand an odd job man not being registered. But not an electrician, as you can quite easily kill someone as this article shows.

That poor lad died because of incompetence. RIP

I am not registered with any scheme provider, last time I was it was a waste of money because they didn't have a clue about the work I covered and even admitted as much, I therefore do not prescribe to such systems saving me a lot of money for what may be a few jobs a yr, if I find I need a scheme covered certificate then I have a few companies that will gladly sign my work off given the help I have given them over the yrs, so to imply or directly write someone off simply because they are not part of a scheme is a tad short sighted, agree that the cowboys are very unlikely to be registered with anyone but you need to keep a distinct line drawn between not registered and competent and plain bodgit and son.

Just be very careful what you post on facetube etc, if you ever go so far as to make that direct link of anyone not been registered been incompetent you could be subject to libel from other local trades people, this is why the like of sites like check a trader etc are very careful with their wording.

 

[UNG]

I didn't name them directly I just put in my advert that I was registered as a competent person with NAPIT and that meant I worked to a certain standard and also mentioned that I was also fully insured and have been DBS & CRB checked.

How do you know that they don't work to the same standard you do, I think you will find that most "electricians" work to BS7671 and don't need a CPS to verify that fact.
The fact that the DBS and CRB are the same thing and have 3 levels to use "DBS & CRB checked" is pretty meaningless especially if it the basic check

I can understand an odd job man not being registered. But not an electrician, as you can quite easily kill someone as this article shows.

That poor lad died because of incompetence. RIP

A CPS registered electrician can just as easily kill someone as CPS registration doesn't guarantee you immunity from a moment of stupidity that results in a death

That poor lad died because of blatant stupidity of an idiot

 

[Raptor0014]

I am not registered with any scheme provider, last time I was it was a waste of money because they didn't have a clue about the work I covered and even admitted as much, I therefore do not prescribe to such systems saving me a lot of money for what may be a few jobs a yr, if I find I need a scheme covered certificate then I have a few companies that will gladly sign my work off given the help I have given them over the yrs, so to imply or directly write someone off simply because they are not part of a scheme is a tad short sighted, agree that the cowboys are very unlikely to be registered with anyone but you need to keep a distinct line drawn between not registered and competent and plain bodgit and son.

Just be very careful what you post on facetube etc, if you ever go so far as to make that direct link of anyone not been registered been incompetent you could be subject to libel from other local trades people, this is why the like of sites like check a trader etc are very careful with their wording.

I wasn't saying someone who isn't registered wasn't competent. If you took it that way then that's on you as nowhere did I infer that.

Registration gives a client some assurance that the person they are dealing with has proven to be competent in the work they provide. Not being registered with a scheme gives the client no assurance at all.

Agree about the heads up for face ache etc and I wouldn't say that someone who isn't registered means they're incompetent. Not does registration mean something can't be f***ed up.

How do you know that they don't work to the same standard you do, I think you will find that most "electricians" work to BS7671 and don't need a CPS to verify that fact.
The fact that the DBS and CRB are the same thing and have 3 levels to use "DBS & CRB checked" is pretty meaningless especially if it the basic check


A CPS registered electrician can just as easily kill someone as CPS registration doesn't guarantee you immunity from a moment of stupidity that results in a death

That poor lad died because of blatant stupidity of an idiot

I never said CRB or DBS verifies someone works to BS7671. What it does do is let the client know that the person they are dealing with isn't a local criminal. Which is reassuring for elderly or vulnerable persons.

My checks are all enhanced checks. Partly because I am ex-military and still hold some that were required for my job and also because I currently work in a school as a learning mentor (I've only just plunged myself in as a solo electrician). So I have to have detailed checks. And before you mention my experience, or lack thereof, I am fully aware I may be qualified and deemed competent but have little in the way of experience. Hence I am on here to learn, as I'm not afraid to ask questions.

A problem I see these days is there is a minority of highly experienced electricians (like the one in the article) thinking they are above someone checking they are competent. Just because they have been doing it for years.

Might be worth some of you actually asking someone to clarify what they meant by their post, rather than jumping straight in on the offensive.

Peace out.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Surely your college qualifications would be enough to prove competence ?

I have been on and off with scams , but imo my knowledge and ability / competence to do the job will always lay with my education and experiences

a scam badge means nothing imo other than you are paying £££ to someone to do the job you trained to do

 

[Raptor0014]

Surely your college qualifications would be enough to prove competence ?

I have been on and off with scams , but imo my knowledge and ability / competence to do the job will always lay with my education and experiences

a scam badge means nothing imo other than you are paying £££ to someone to do the job you trained to do

The problem being the cowboys out there like the one in the link have ruined it for the honest and competent electricians.

 

[telectrix]

it's not just the cowboys. niceic and the rest of the scams , since part pee came in, have promoted the domestic installer , short course, no experience wannabbees now let loose on the genera lpublic to learn as they go. don't get me wrong. some short course guys are good even ifl ackinging experience,but the majority have bee trained to pass a classroom test, as long as they pay their dues to niceic etc.then when --- goews ---- up, niceic dunno wannna know .theys had their £500.

 

[UNG]

I wasn't saying someone who isn't registered wasn't competent. If you took it that way then that's on you as nowhere did I infer that.

Registration gives a client some assurance that the person they are dealing with has proven to be competent in the work they provide. Not being registered with a scheme gives the client no assurance at all.

Agree about the heads up for face ache etc and I wouldn't say that someone who isn't registered means they're incompetent. Not does registration mean something can't be f***ed up.


I never said CRB or DBS verifies someone works to BS7671. What it does do is let the client know that the person they are dealing with isn't a local criminal. Which is reassuring for elderly or vulnerable persons.

My checks are all enhanced checks. Partly because I am ex-military and still hold some that were required for my job and also because I currently work in a school as a learning mentor (I've only just plunged myself in as a solo electrician). So I have to have detailed checks. And before you mention my experience, or lack thereof, I am fully aware I may be qualified and deemed competent but have little in the way of experience. Hence I am on here to learn, as I'm not afraid to ask questions.

Might be worth some of you actually asking someone to clarify what they meant by their post, rather than jumping straight in on the offensive.

Peace out.

If you took the time to read your post before posting and explained yourself better you may not need to go on the offensive

If you also took a little longer to read the replies and responses your replies may not misquote someone as ex-military you are no doubt aware of the 7 P's

A problem I see these days is there is a minority of highly experienced electricians (like the one in the article) thinking they are above someone checking they are competent. Just because they have been doing it for years.

Nowhere in the article does it refer to the defendant as a "highly experienced electrician" so I'm not sure why you have made that assumption
A problem I see these days are poorly qualified quick course trained operatives who lack experience being assessed as competent by a CPS and registered as competent within weeks of completing the course masquerading as fully qualified electricians while there may be some good ones quite a few I have spoken to will never make the grade despite brandishing there CPS logo on their van and workwear

There was a time when you had to have traded for three years before you could apply to become an approved contractor with the NICEIC now as the song goes "it's all about the money"

 

[GBDamo]

Surely your college qualifications would be enough to prove competence ?

I have been on and off with scams , but imo my knowledge and ability / competence to do the job will always lay with my education and experiences

a scam badge means nothing imo other than you are paying £££ to someone to do the job you trained to do

I spent a wonderful six months working alongside a "Fully Qualified" spark. Had every piece of paper, NVQ, apprenticeship etc.. who was utterly clueless.

Lovely young lad, and wouldn't take anything on he couldn't do but that list was pretty comprehensive and ultimately we let him go.

College paper absolutely does not prove competence.

 

[marconi]

Top tip: If you do a measurement or some testing or inspection for the purposes of safety, or something else very important then record (including pictures if possible) what you did , when you did it with a time, where you did it, how you did it, with what test kit and the readings in your pocket diary.


It is contemporaneous evidence and over time builds up a track record of your due diligence. Develop a code to jot down briefly. It sets you apart from the rest that do not and might be useful one day.

And if the final decision is above your pay grade or beyond your realm of responsibility, report it to him or her who is the duty holder or has the responsibility - on paper and demand acknowledgement. If not forthcoming and even if acknowledged make a contemporaneous note in your diary of what you represented upwards and their response.

 

[Raptor0014]

If you took the time to read your post before posting and explained yourself better you may not need to go on the offensive

If you also took a little longer to read the replies and responses your replies may not misquote someone as ex-military you are no doubt aware of the 7 P's


Nowhere in the article does it refer to the defendant as a "highly experienced electrician" so I'm not sure why you have made that assumption
A problem I see these days are poorly qualified quick course trained operatives who lack experience being assessed as competent by a CPS and registered as competent within weeks of completing the course masquerading as fully qualified electricians while there may be some good ones quite a few I have spoken to will never make the grade despite brandishing there CPS logo on their van and workwear

There was a time when you had to have traded for three years before you could apply to become an approved contractor with the NICEIC now as the song goes "it's all about the money"

Accepted I misread your quote regarding CPS. But your response to my original post was unwarranted. Maybe if YOU took the time to read my post and then if unsure asked. You wouldn’t have needed to reply the way you did. And I’m not on the offensive. I am merely explaining myself. If you take it to be on the offensive then that’s up to you.

I simply stated my faceache post had upset some local electricians because I commented that I was registered with a Govt approved scheme. Regardless of whether you agree with said scheme or not. It doesn’t mean I inferred someone wasn’t competent for not being on a CPS.

Yes fully aware of the 7Ps thanks!

So if the article doesn’t say highly experienced electrician then what would you think if someone said they had 50yrs experience?

 

[UNG]

The problem being the cowboys out there like the one in the link have ruined it for the honest and competent highly experienced electricians.

Corrected that for you

Registration gives a client some assurance that the person they are dealing with has proven to be competent in the work they provide. Not being registered with a scheme gives the client no assurance at all.

Try telling some of my clients that.
An NIC contractor did a complete EICR on a church in just less than 2.5 hours, I was asked to look at the unsatisfactory EICR because of a couple of C2's ok the lack of RCD's was a C2 and needed attention but the other C2 was because of unswitched socket outlets they totally missed all the other faults and issues that filled an A4 sheet when I looked at it that were a mix of C2's and C3's and one that was a borderline C2 / C1
To be fair to that contractor the last proper PIR was done in 2004 the following EICR's in 2010, 2015 and 2020 were all inaccurate and missed many potential issues and all were done by NIC contractors

 

[UNG]

I spent a wonderful six months working alongside a "Fully Qualified" spark. Had every piece of paper, NVQ, apprenticeship etc.. who was utterly clueless.

Lovely young lad, and wouldn't take anything on he couldn't do but that list was pretty comprehensive and ultimately we let him go.

College paper absolutely does not prove competence.

I know of someone similar he was useless as a spark on the tools so he followed that old route of "those that can't teach" how good he was at that I do not know

 

[Raptor0014]

Corrected that for you

Try telling some of my clients that.
An NIC contractor did a complete EICR on a church in just less than 2.5 hours, I was asked to look at the unsatisfactory EICR because of a couple of C2's ok the lack of RCD's was a C2 and needed attention but the other C2 was because of unswitched socket outlets they totally missed all the other faults and issues that filled an A4 sheet when I looked at it that were a mix of C2's and C3's and one that was a borderline C2 / C1
To be fair to that contractor the last proper PIR was done in 2004 the following EICR's in 2010, 2015 and 2020 were all inaccurate and missed many potential issues and all were done by NIC contractors

Shows no one is infallible. A bit like the guy that did my assessment. 30yrs experience and told me I’d used the wrong size cable on a 40A MCB. I’d used 6mm T&E. He said it was rated to 39A. I said I had checked the OSG and 7671 and must have misread as I thought it was 47A when clipped direct.

He said he would check and apologised when he did that he thought I’d used the wrong cable.

Would that mean he’s incompetent? No, it just means he had a error in recall. Which is why we have books to refer to. He was competent enough to check what he was saying when I disagreed.

Also had a local non-registered electrician try telling me that the earth cable from a MET to CU was fine at 10mm as that’s how it had always been done for years. When I said it should be 16mm and showed him the OSG (as he said it wasn’t) he thought that was just someone being too cautious with the regs. This prarticular guy has been one of the local sparks for 40yrs.

Doesn’t mean he can’t do the job to a good standard. But he is being incompetent by not checking his work is in accordance with current regulations.

The difference between competent and incompetent is not just the standard of work you do. It’s ensuring what you do is safe and complies with the current regulations (or the regulations when it was installed when doing a EICR etc).

 

[westward10]

What is wrong with a 10.0 earthing conductor.

 

[Raptor0014]

What is wrong with a 10.0 earthing conductor.

I didn’t say there was if it’s an existing installation. If it’s new then it should be 16mm, unless my instructor and the OSG are wrong?

Which is possible so if someone can correct me then I’m always happy to learn.

 

[westward10]

I didn’t say there was if it’s an existing installation. If it’s new then it should be 16mm, unless my instructor and the OSG are wrong?

Which is possible so if someone can correct me then I’m always happy to learn.

It is more a rule of thumb and saves having to calculate whether you can opt for a smaller csa even on a new installation. I don't have an On Site Guide but does it actually quote a Regulation.

 

[Raptor0014]

It is more a rule of thumb and saves having to calculate whether you can opt for a smaller csa even on a new installation. I don't have an On Site Guide but does it actually quote a Regulation.

In each type of meter installation it clearly shows 16mm to the CU and all supplementary to be 10mm.

On my course it was one of the things I had to check when doing the practical test that correct size earth bonding had been used.