Sockets in bathrooms

[LastManOnline]

More generally, there is a very big risk in downgrading a known safety position in the name of convenience.

We all know that some folk will take an extension lead in to a bathroom if they really want power there, and we can't stop them. But it takes more effort than plugging in something to a socket already in a bathroom, and critically for any electrician doing the job, it is clearly a decision by said person against the accepted electrical safety regulation practice.

A change to allow sockets in a bathroom is one that might happen, but it is more of a high-level political decision. Someone at the IET, etc, has to put forward the case that it would be better to society as a whole to allow sockets for convenience, and the risk of additional death/injury is acceptably small in relation to that benefit.

For any of us to put a socket in there would have to be a very good justification that we could present if it came to facing a magistrate at a fatal accident inquiry!

Now hypothetically I would fit a socket for a special case such as the earlier photo showing one in a bathroom for a disabled person. So if a carer came to me and made the point that this person has special needs that really needs the ready supply of power in the converted bathroom, I would probably do something like that - fit an outdoor RCD-protected socket on to an existing RCD-protected ring or dedicated spur.

In this case I could argue that (1) there was a specific justification for fitting it beyond trivial convenience, (2) that it was waterproof style and outside of zone 0/1, and (3) that the dual RCD arrangement would avoid a single point of failure in the protection electronics.

But if it became normalised to have sockets fitted you would get dodgy Dave and similar fitting them to homes without RCD protection, which I suspect are still a significant portion of the UK stock.

I wanted to read your post a few times. It appears to me that you guys seem to give a lot of weight to the inability of your fellow countrymen to use sockets, responsibly in wet rooms. I must accept that as a factor in your decision making and respect it. I struggle a little to understand it but respect it I must.

 

[lozarus]

It would be really fascinating to see some statistics on electrical incidents in the bathroom. My partner is European. Not having a socket in any bathroom in the UK is still something that confuses her. Schuko sockets in the bathroom are the norm is most European countries. Most the uses are shavers / toothbrushes - which we sensibly overcome by the use of an isolating transformer. Occasionally washing machines slip in there too as mentioned previously. Other than that, certainly when visiting friends, I found it was hairdryers being used by the oversink mirror. The hazard here is clear, but the potential risks and level would be an interesting topic

 

[LastManOnline]

It would be really fascinating to see some statistics on electrical incidents in the bathroom. My partner is European. Not having a socket in any bathroom in the UK is still something that confuses her. Schuko sockets in the bathroom are the norm is most European countries. Most the uses are shavers / toothbrushes - which we sensibly overcome by the use of an isolating transformer. Occasionally washing machines slip in there too as mentioned previously. Other than that, certainly when visiting friends, I found it was hairdryers being used by the oversink mirror. The hazard here is clear, but the potential risks and level would be an interesting topic

"Travel broadens the horizons as they say". There was a time when a socket would never be allowed in a bathroom in the British Isles. Period. Now a socket can be installed 2.4 mts from the shower/bath edge. A huge change.Understandably we are all wary because it's been hammered into the mind of every electrical apprentice that sockets in wetrooms, is a no go.Its important to stress that a socket in a, bathroom presents no danger in itself. It's how it's USED. In this part of the world we feel (apparently) our citizens can't be educated to do that safely and responsibly. The Europeans, Americans,
and just about every everyone else take a different view. From their point of view it does, nt add up. I agree. You can't trust you average homeowner not to balance a TV on the edge of his bath and endanger himself but you are ok with issuing him a driving licence?
That does,nt stack up

 

[pc1966]

You can't trust you average homeowner not to balance a TV on the edge of his bath and endanger himself but you are ok with issuing him a driving licence?

Indeed we do, but there is a driving test to be passed first. And we still see around 2700 deaths on the road each year.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Any Hazard analysis and Risk Assessment will show the potential for harm, but then we could do that on everything to do with electrics and show the same potential, it does not have to be in a Bathroom.

Why am I seeing more and more ads between posts, it's most annoying?

 

[LastManOnline]

Indeed we do, but there is a driving test to be passed first. And we still see around 2700 deaths on the road each year.

OK. But I, m not sure what that reply contributes to the debate.

Indeed we do, but there is a driving test to be passed first. And we still see around 2700 deaths on the road each year.

Let's all park up then and hand back our keys? . That in effect is the current situation regarding sockets in bathrooms.

 

[nicebutdim]

La Direction Générale de la Concurrence, de la Consommation et de la Répression des Fraudes warned the French about this very issue, back in 2018.

The article below summarises the details:

French warned against danger of bathroom device use

The French public has been warned not to use mobile phones or other electrical devices in the bathroom after a spike in the number of deaths due to water-related electric shock.

www.connexionfrance.com

Below is the government release (in French):

Utilisation d’un téléphone en cours de chargement dans une salle de bain : attention danger !

A la suite de plusieurs décès, la DGCCRF alerte les consommateurs sur les risques liés à l’utilisation des téléphones portables en cours de chargement, et plus largement de tout appareil électrique branché sur le secteur, dans les salles de bains.

www.economie.gouv.fr

There's no reason why sockets couldn't be fitted in bathrooms, but whether or not they should is an entirely different consideration. It's all about perspective and I imagine the parent who loses a child to electrocution would have a very different perspective to someone who felt it was important to be able to charge their phone while having a bath.

 

[LastManOnline]

La Direction Générale de la Concurrence, de la Consommation et de la Répression des Fraudes warned the French about this very issue, back in 2018.

The article below summarises the details:

French warned against danger of bathroom device use

The French public has been warned not to use mobile phones or other electrical devices in the bathroom after a spike in the number of deaths due to water-related electric shock.

www.connexionfrance.com

Below is the government release (in French):

Utilisation d’un téléphone en cours de chargement dans une salle de bain : attention danger !

A la suite de plusieurs décès, la DGCCRF alerte les consommateurs sur les risques liés à l’utilisation des téléphones portables en cours de chargement, et plus largement de tout appareil électrique branché sur le secteur, dans les salles de bains.

www.economie.gouv.fr

There's no reason why sockets couldn't be fitted in bathrooms, but whether or not they should is an entirely different consideration. It's all about perspective and I imagine the parent who loses a child to electrocution would have a very different perspective to someone who felt it was important to be able to charge their phone while having a bath.

Good article. So should the approach to dealing with the problem bebetter education. or removing the socket?

 

[nicebutdim]

Good article. So should the approach to dealing with the problem bebetter education. or removing the socket?

Not for me to say, although at this point in time it would seem that France has taken the education approach.

I guess the question is whether a modest increase in deaths by electrocution would be warranted, in order to have the convenience of outlets in bathrooms.

It has already been pointed out that people will run extension leads into a bathroom, but I think it is beyond argument that adding outlets to bathrooms would significantly increase the number of appliances used in those rooms.

I get why people might want sockets in their bathroom, but I've personally never felt inconvenienced by their ommision. Other countries have traditionally had sockets in bathrooms, but we have not - perhaps I simply don't miss something that was never available to me,

 

[pc1966]

Good article. So should the approach to dealing with the problem be better education. or removing the socket?

In France there is little chance that sockets would be removed as they already exist, so education is the only real way forward there.

Here we are debating if we should add sockets to bathrooms, and if we did we then would be facing the French dilemma of how to keep them from causing avoidable death/injury.

As I said before ultimately this is a political decision, not an engineering one, as it comes down to the question of convenience for bathroom sockets versus consequences of them being present.

And it is not about what you or I might want a socket for, it is about what other would do should it be present. For example, it would never occur to me to use a phone/laptop in a bath (even on battery mode), but obviously other do as sadly that French article on electrocution revealed. Similarly I would not fit a washing machine or dishwasher in a bathroom, but given a socket and water facilities that would happen pronto!

 

[LastManOnline]

In France there is little chance that sockets would be removed as they already exist, so education is the only real way forward there.

Here we are debating if we should add sockets to bathrooms, and if we did we then would be facing the French dilemma of how to keep them from causing avoidable death/injury.

As I said before ultimately this is a political decision, not an engineering one, as it comes down to the question of convenience for bathroom sockets versus consequences of them being present.

And it is not about what you or I might want a socket for, it is about what other would do should it be present. For example, it would never occur to me to use a phone/laptop in a bath (even on battery mode), but obviously other do as sadly that French article on electrocution revealed. Similarly I would not fit a washing machine or dishwasher in a bathroom, but given a socket and water facilities that would happen pronto!

I agree that politics will be and indeed should be a involved regarding these decisions. It's clearly a decision on a much different level than increasing the size of the CPC in T&E (though I suspect there may have been a little politics there as well) because of the heightened safety factor.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Heightened safety factor by increasing the size of the CPC or decreasing it amazingly ambiguous statement.

 

[LastManOnline]

Heightened safety factor by increasing the size of the CPC or decreasing it amazingly ambiguous statement.

Ambiguous is spot on. Should never have mentioned anything about the CPC example. Was just trying to make a comparison between how much more serious the decision on including sockets in a bathroom is compared to increasing the size of the CPC. Anyway, now that I have your ear, how are you enjoying the sockets in your bathroom? ?

 

[Mike Johnson]

I enjoy them very much especially the wine fridge, by the way it's a utility room with a shower in one corner.

 

[nicebutdim]

Maybe that's best left for a thread about showers in living/working areas

 

[LastManOnline]

Yes UK electrical regulations can be very old fashioned at times, but have also been regarded as being among the safest in the world.
Should we lower our standards on some things to match what other countries do, or should they raise their standards to match what we do?

Of course we aren't perfect and there are areas where the UK needs to raise its standards to match the rest of the world, such as with TNCS supplies and earth electrodes.

Second attempt at this one

"UK electrical regs can be very old fashioned.."

You are correct. Buts its best if you point them out rather than me. So let's hear from you.
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"But have also been regarded as some of the best in the world.."

Correct again. I regularly highlight them on other forums.
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"Should we lower our standards.."

Never
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"UK needs to raise it standards re TNCS /earth electrodes like rest of world"

Name one country that has gotten it right with TNC-S?
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By the way, answers on this one open to all poster?
[automerge]1600861163[/automerge]

I enjoy them very much especially the wine fridge, by the way it's a utility room with a shower in one corner.

Wine fridge? So while in the UK you are concerned about TV, s been balanced on edge of Bath, in France you are concerned about people remaining balanced on side of bath?

 

[Mike Johnson]

Your attempt at humour escapes me completely?

 

[LastManOnline]

Your attempt at humour escapes me completely?

Just a quip about drinking wine and maintaining balance. Was, nt meant to be offensive