What is a qualified electrician

[Des 56]

Having seen quite few threads on this subject,whilst looking at the IET forum this subject was posted

The link given was for a judicial ruling on what constitutes a qualified electrician

The summary was interesting,and may end the debate with regard training periods and other contentious issues

Here is a link,your thoughts are appreciated


What Is A "Qualified Electrician"? | My Local Electrician

 

[Penance]

I think it is good in principle and something that has needed clarifying for some time.
I have only skimmed the article so may have missed something but providing input was gathered from the right sources to make the decision I applaud it.

 

[Paul.M]

After reading the full article with regards to a qualified electrician installing a hot tub, what quals would you say someone needs to carry out that type of work?

Imo I would say 17th, 2330 level 2 (or equivalent), experience in testing that particular system.

It will be interesting to see what the judge says and what the knock on effects are.

 

[topquark]

I think we need a definition of what an electrician is first. There are, like most engineers, several different types and domains for the work done. We need to be clear about both the particular type of electrician and what they are qualified to do.

 

[Electricalserv]

I think we need a definition of what an electrician is first. There are, like most engineers, several different types and domains for the work done. We need to be clear about both the particular type of electrician and what they are qualified to do.

Exactly different domains. The domestic installer is one. Although I hate the thing its defined. Your not likely to need skills on motors & steel trunking etc installing on domestic premises.

Again as pointed out previously about this article. If you only say the NVQ3 is valid then thats alot of experienced sparks out of work. There isn't enough vacancies for everyone to get an apprentiship and the industry is not ran by those already in it. there should be room for people to come in from diverse backgrounds.

I think the main problem here is the ones who where 'LUCKY' enough to get an apprentiship want to hog the trade....and the main way of doing this is by saying you need NVQ3. They do this because they know its not as simple as signing up to a college and gaining the qual. You need to be working and prove evidence that you can do it.

A niche in the market would be for the training providers to set up workshops where all the practicle work can be done for a fixed price on the course.

People forget that apprentiships get sponsored by the government and fees are payed for out the tax payers pockets. Well there should be some sort of scheme for young lads who didnt get an apprentiship to gain the NVQ 3.

 

[Engineer54]

I think we need a definition of what an electrician is first. There are, like most engineers, several different types and domains for the work done. We need to be clear about both the particular type of electrician and what they are qualified to do.

Not being funny here, but it never used to be like that at all!! When you had completed your indentured apprenticeship, then you would of had the basic qualifications and training to undertake any general electrical work be it domestic, commercial, or industrial as an electrician... Only then would you specialise if required, in a chosen field....

 

[IQ Electrical]

Not being funny here, but it never used to be like that at all!! When you had completed your indentured apprenticeship, then you would of had the basic qualifications and training to undertake any general electrical work be it domestic, commercial, or industrial as an electrician... Only then would you specialise if required, in a chosen field....

As always, I agree with you!

I think if we're absolutely honest, fragmenting electricians into domestic, commercial, industrial etc. hasn't done anything to uphold general skill levels within the industry.

Like you said, you did your apprenticeship (my route was 236 parts 1 & 2, AM1, AM2, C course etc. etc.) and then you were in a position to diversify into different parts of the industry.

My apprenticeship to finishing my 'C' course was almost 5 years!

The difference now is that guys seem to be boxed into a particular part of the industry from the start, almost exclusively, meaning that if a particular part of the industry is not doing so well, the ability to jump across to a different part has been lost.

 

[Kamikaze]

Not being funny here, but it never used to be like that at all!! When you had completed your indentured apprenticeship, then you would of had the basic qualifications and training to undertake any general electrical work be it domestic, commercial, or industrial as an electrician... Only then would you specialise if required, in a chosen field....

It will be difficult not to agree with you!

 

[oldtimer]

Well 35 years ago I started my time as they say up here My intake was told no ifs no buts you must pass your Course B (approved) you will serve 4 years with an extra 2 years improving to get your approved and you must stay with the same employer for these 2 years to get it. Previously if you did not get your qualifications you had to do 4 years then 1 year to improve and you were stuck with a red electricians SJIB card and would not get a green Approved electricians card.

Plus the guys you went to college were a mix ie Industrial/commercial (me) Domestic or Local council/ DOE(government) My employer at time could defer your approved card for one year if he thought you were not up to it this happened to a guy who started a year before me who had all the qualifications but poor soul technically could not put a nut in a monkeys mouth. Mind this was in the days where you manager was hard but fair unlike today where petty jelousy has come to the fore and because some people who managed to wing it think everybody is doing the same.

I was fortunate because I was a quick learner plus my boss dropped me on my own job when I was halfway through my 3rd year he also applied for my electricians card 4 months early and although the company (Mathew Hall) did not have to pay me until the due date he pushed it through as I was a 4th year app in charge of a couple of what we call up here "Hoose Bashers" or what would be called Domestic electricians today. Also my feeling about gradings and registration companies is well known on this forum and as I have said we need a central register and the only ones to do it are the JIB or SJIB I also do not think I am elite and I am more than happy to encourage anybody regardless of age or race as long as they are willing to learn

 

[AWD]

Hello people, i am allways having this debate with work mates i have my 2330 lvl 2,3 nvq lvl 3 17th edition 2392 testing, and my pat testing along with various different health and safety bits and also couple of day courses on fire alarms and emergancy lighting. i done my 2330 through night school 2 nights a week becuase the firm i work for would not pay for it or give me the day a week of that took me just under 2 years and i have 3 and a half years expieriance, and i am 21. SO WHAT WOULD YOU LOT SAY???? thanks.

 

[somersetsparks]

Well my company also takes on adult trainees, paid a reasonable rate and expected to get the same quals as what an apprentice would be, even the am2. No IFs no BUTs just the standard quals, no domestic installers etc. although there are some mates who are not at all qualified.

A lot of people are specialised into domestic etc. but I honestly believe that everyone should have a basic idea of all aspects even if they do not regularily do it, I hate the way things are segregated.

We need a standard and that is the standard set out by the JIB definition of electrician:

2330 parts 1 and 2 or equivalent
NVQ 3

To me, if you haven't got that then you are not an electrician.

Thats not meant to be offensive at all because anyone can gain these quals they are not difficult.

 

[rmc86uk]

Hello people, i am allways having this debate with work mates i have my 2330 lvl 2,3 nvq lvl 3 17th edition 2392 testing, and my pat testing along with various different health and safety bits and also couple of day courses on fire alarms and emergancy lighting. i done my 2330 through night school 2 nights a week becuase the firm i work for would not pay for it or give me the day a week of that took me just under 2 years and i have 3 and a half years expieriance, and i am 21. SO WHAT WOULD YOU LOT SAY???? thanks.

JIB graded Electrician

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[AWD]

there is no part 1 in 2330 just part 2 3.

 

[jason jones]

I'm 37 and finished my 2330 last year after 3 years of saturdays. didnt know until renewing my ecs card that i needed the nvq 3 as my tutors ALL assured us we would be aproved sparks if we passed the course. been in the trade for just over 7 years and am a bit p****d off that i'll have to do another 2 years and pay 800ish quid(quoted by the nvq bloke i spoke to) so someone can come and see if i can put tray up straight. As far as i know there is no other option of being proved competent. Electricalservs idea of a practical workshop hits the nail on the head for someone like me who's been in the trade a while but never done an aprentiship and can prove quickly and more importantly cheaply what i am capable of. But another more effective way would be for me to provide names and numbers of the companies i've worked for so that they can (if they believe me good enough) vouch for me.

 

[Electricalserv]

I'm 37 and finished my 2330 last year after 3 years of saturdays. didnt know until renewing my ecs card that i needed the nvq 3 as my tutors ALL assured us we would be aproved sparks if we passed the course. been in the trade for just over 7 years and am a bit p****d off that i'll have to do another 2 years and pay 800ish quid(quoted by the nvq bloke i spoke to) so someone can come and see if i can put tray up straight. As far as i know there is no other option of being proved competent. Electricalservs idea of a practical workshop hits the nail on the head for someone like me who's been in the trade a while but never done an aprentiship and can prove quickly and more importantly cheaply what i am capable of. But another more effective way would be for me to provide names and numbers of the companies i've worked for so that they can (if they believe me good enough) vouch for me.

That can be done mate. Send a few referee's to the JIB I've heard that working before. It goes to a panel of decision makers apparently.

 

[jason jones]

the bloke i spoke to at the jib dismissed the idea out of hand. just kept saying nvq 3 like a robot.

 

[Electricalserv]

the bloke i spoke to at the jib dismissed the idea out of hand. just kept saying nvq 3 like a robot.

Someone will jump on this NVQ3 soon and make a shed load of money from it. Just set up a big warehouse for non-apprentices to do these installs.

 

[jason jones]

brill idea. should get some pipe fitters and ductors in after day one to make us move whats been done cuz its in their way just to make it a touch more realistic.

 

[topquark]

I have to agree that the best way to get experience at present is with an apprenticeship. The only problem I have with the apprenticeship/NVQ being the only route is: someone who goes the route of 'A'/'AS' Level or HND (HNC excluded) then (optionally) Degree could not then easily "take up the tools" at a later date and that just seems wrong to me. There must be a better way of getting "accreditation" (for want of a better word) on the practical side.

Could that be done by the incumbent sitting an AM2 (or whatever 2357 will have as it's final test) and that completing the qualification process or would there need to be more to it than that?

 

[Engineer54]

I have to agree that the best way to get experience at present is with an apprenticeship. The only problem I have with the apprenticeship/NVQ being the only route is: someone who goes the route of 'A'/'AS' Level or HND (HNC excluded) then (optionally) Degree could not then easily "take up the tools" at a later date and that just seems wrong to me. There must be a better way of getting "accreditation" (for want of a better word) on the practical side.

There is a way to go that route Topquark, well there was anyway, ...by way of a ''Sandwich'' degree course. Takes a little longer, ..4 years instead of the usual 3 years. It works very much the same way as block release training works, roughly at a ratio of 2/3rds collage/study and 1/3rd per semester on site work experience, plus of course any national educational holiday periods. Most of these degree schemes are company sponsored, so after the employee graduates, he isn't coming into the company work place ''Green'' as many of the normal graduates would certainly be...

As i say, not at all sure if the major companies still work this degree scheme, but it was certainly well utilised in the past!!!

 

[oldtimer]

Someone will jump on this NVQ3 soon and make a shed load of money from it. Just set up a big warehouse for non-apprentices to do these installs.

Thats the whole idea in other words have a money making machine by selling the courses and get the JIB on board and its hey Merry Xmas to one and all an while you are at it once you are qualified you will need someone to register with and we get even more buckarooos from that plus the clever bit is we give you a £5 t shirt with our logo on it and you run about shouting look at me I am official and tut tut you cant do that your not registered like what I am and somebody pipes up so how come you did not have to be registered years ago then..............................................

And dont forget you cumpulsary safety course at £60 a pop every three years plus £25 to renew your SJIB (I live in Scotland) card because it is no longer valid as your safety cert has run out

 

[topquark]

There is a way to go that route Topquark, well there was anyway, ...by way of a ''Sandwich'' degree course. Takes a little longer, ..4 years instead of the usual 3 years. It works very much the same way as block release training works, roughly at a ratio of 2/3rds collage/study and 1/3rd per semester on site work experience, plus of course any national educational holiday periods. Most of these degree schemes are company sponsored, so after the employee graduates, he isn't coming into the company work place ''Green'' as many of the normal graduates would certainly be...

As i say, not at all sure if the major companies still work this degree scheme, but it was certainly well utilised in the past!!!

They don't anymore mate (at least not at Degree level, you can do HNC as a pre qual). That's kinda my point, also that you'd have to decide in advance that's what you wanted to do. The problem being is that some won't know that's what they want to do in advance. So the only way we'll get good sparks is by those that decide up front to do an apprenticeship. With more and more doing degrees straight from college and the increase in school leaving age, I can see the field suffering from lack of skilled youngsters and that will lead to more "learn it quick" type qualifications.

 

[Electricalserv]

Thats the whole idea in other words have a money making machine by selling the courses and get the JIB on board and its hey Merry Xmas to one and all an while you are at it once you are qualified you will need someone to register with and we get even more buckarooos from that plus the clever bit is we give you a £5 t shirt with our logo on it and you run about shouting look at me I am official and tut tut you cant do that your not registered like what I am and somebody pipes up so how come you did not have to be registered years ago then..............................................

And dont forget you cumpulsary safety course at £60 a pop every three years plus £25 to renew your SJIB (I live in Scotland) card because it is no longer valid as your safety cert has run out

Agreed, agreed, agreed.... money making rackets...

I was thinking just yesterday. The people who have benefited from this are the schemes.


It would be good to see just how many companies have arisen because of this recession. I started mine because no-one had work for me so I decided to find my own work!

 

[oldtimer]

Agreed, agreed, agreed.... money making rackets...

I was thinking just yesterday. The people who have benefited from this are the schemes.


It would be good to see just how many companies have arisen because of this recession. I started mine because no-one had work for me so I decided to find my own work!

Well said that man who knows we might even get ourselves organised to bring some common sense to this whole mess and it is a mess

 

[SMB]

I am certainly an electrician.

Ive worked in domestic environments.
Ive worked in industrial environments.
Ive worked in commercial environments.
ive worked in marine environments.



Im really rubbish at all the above....sort of...(i can bend pipe..nearly)



I don't chain smoke.









god save the queen.



BLAH.

 

[SMB]

However......

IM NOT AN ENGINEER.....

 

[SMB]

and im 42.

 

[SMB]

not 54.

 

[SMB]

And where it works i put neutrals into switch boxes......

 

[topquark]

and im 42.

Does that mean you have the answers to everything?

 

[Engineer54]

Does that mean you have the answers to everything?

No, ....It just means he'd be a better plumber!!

 

[topquark]

Not sure I follow that. Was thinking of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_(number)

 

[SMB]

Does that mean you have the answers to everything?

Nope.....

as Ive stated before...im a village idiot.

And that is where this forum comes in...i need help everyday with the installation im involved in,.

The people who are up their own butts make me smile though.


If i can help someone I will, I don't pretend to be clever and I don't belittle people.


The fools who do belittle people know who they are.

This forum is about informing people...not proving that you are more clever than the next person.



Or have I missed something?

 

[topquark]

Nope.....

as Ive stated before...im a village idiot.

And that is where this forum comes in...i need help everyday with the installation im involved in,.

The people who are up their own butts make me smile though.


If i can help someone I will, I don't pretend to be clever and I don't belittle people.


The fools who do belittle people know who they are.

This forum is about informing people...not proving that you are more clever than the next person.



Or have I missed something?

Nope, I do hope that's not the impression I'm giving. I would never, intentionally, belittle anyone!

 

[Engineer54]

Not sure I follow that. Was thinking of this: 42 (number) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He stated earlier, ...he'd very much like to become a plumber, maybe he should!!!

 

[SMB]

Engineer54...
I could answer your comment in an abusive manner, but I won't

However, I will suggest you are a rather unpopular person here.

you are blunt and rude.

Im sure you are very clever...but you have no personal skills.

The people who work for you think you are a fool.......defo.

 

[Engineer54]

Topquark, it's not you he's trying to have a pop at mate. ....He's basically trying to imply that i belittle others because i have opinions and beliefs that i stand-by and won't back down on!!!
For some reason he takes offence at that, and has to resort to inflammatory personal comments, but never mind, It takes all sorts, and this is a forum at the end of the day. ....And a very good one at that!!!

 

[SMB]

Yawn.....

 

[ecclescake]

Is this the monthly I couldn't get a apprentiship but it's not my fault so I'll do a quick way coz of age, £, time, don't no what I want to do, maggie thatcher, anyone but me, and so on and so on then just JOG ON.