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Totally agree @JK-Electrical in my area there is me and 1 SELECT guy who are registered but we have to compete with another 12 dangerous Dave's, Brian the bodgers and now the super wizz-kid that's done his 3 week course!

Thing is if all the CPS companies were genuinely interested in raising standards then they could see all these people as potential new members and thus much more revenue. Problem with the NICEIC is they dont give a ---- unless you are falsely using their logo. Anything else falls on deaf ears. The NICEIC have a roadshow in Inverness soon so I shall be having my voice if I can.

My business is lucky as we do a lot of renewables and commercial work but we do also benefit off these 'bottom feeders' by being called in to fix their faults. Its money for the business but I always feel bad for the customer as they shouldn't have to pay twice. Most are ignorant about competency, qualifications etc.

Only last night a hotel called saying their 'local electrician' couldn't attend an emergancy (no bedroom lights) until sunday. They wanted me to go. 18 months ago I put right this 'local electricians' work as part of an EICR and it cost the hotel a huge amount of cash. But even then they haven't learned anything from it. I suggested they call somebody out from Inverness which is a 2 hour drive each way! I had beer to drink :)

Roll on the Scottish government giving us protected title. Maybe then a body (SELECT) can get some real teeth and kick these people out of the industry (I can live in hope).
 
Totally agree @JK-Electrical in my area there is me and 1 SELECT guy who are registered but we have to compete with another 12 dangerous Dave's, Brian the bodgers and now the super wizz-kid that's done his 3 week course!

Thing is if all the CPS companies were genuinely interested in raising standards then they could see all these people as potential new members and thus much more revenue. Problem with the NICEIC is they dont give a **** unless you are falsely using their logo. Anything else falls on deaf ears. The NICEIC have a roadshow in Inverness soon so I shall be having my voice if I can.

My business is lucky as we do a lot of renewables and commercial work but we do also benefit off these 'bottom feeders' by being called in to fix their faults. Its money for the business but I always feel bad for the customer as they shouldn't have to pay twice. Most are ignorant about competency, qualifications etc.

Only last night a hotel called saying their 'local electrician' couldn't attend an emergancy (no bedroom lights) until sunday. They wanted me to go. 18 months ago I put right this 'local electricians' work as part of an EICR and it cost the hotel a huge amount of cash. But even then they haven't learned anything from it. I suggested they call somebody out from Inverness which is a 2 hour drive each way! I had beer to drink :)

Roll on the Scottish government giving us protected title. Maybe then a body (SELECT) can get some real teeth and kick these people out of the industry (I can live in hope).

You'd think that wouldn't you? I mean just the other day there was a local woman in crown court having falsely claimed to be Gas Safe registered, why we haven't got a central body like thar, and the legal regulation to be registered God only knows.
 
I was in Helensburgh yesterday (for those south of the border it is a seaside town on the Clyde) collecting my car after a service and MOT. It was a £700 bill, but i trust my mechanic completely, and was happy with his charges as I know my car is as safe as it can be after his ministrations.
Anyway, while i was chatting to him, a van drew up...a local electrician...turns out he spemds most of his time sorting out bodged jobs in the local area...he doesn't like the bodges, but he loves the work he gets fixing them. So sad that he is always second in line...but sadder still that he is so busy with such work. Helensburgh is a fairly posh place, with many huge old houses, and plenty of money, so also sad that those rich folk go for cut-price "electricians"...
 
Anyway, while i was chatting to him, a van drew up...a local electrician...turns out he spemds most of his time sorting out bodged jobs in the local area...he doesn't like the bodges, but he loves the work he gets fixing them. So sad that he is always second in line...but sadder still that he is so busy with such work. Helensburgh is a fairly posh place, with many huge old houses, and plenty of money, so also sad that those rich folk go for cut-price "electricians"...

As you already know, my seafaring, rum-guzzling, plundering friend, I too have spent a considerable amount of tine putting right lash-ups. However, unlike the Helensburgh spark, I derive no pleasure whatsoever from this type of work. I find it tedious.

The clowns who create these lash-ups will continue to thrive at the expense of bona fide contractors until such times as The SNP regime through in Edinburgh takes its finger out of its arse and passes legislation that will give Scottish electricians protection of title.
 
Totally agree @JK-Electrical in my area there is me and 1 SELECT guy who are registered but we have to compete with another 12 dangerous Dave's, Brian the bodgers and now the super wizz-kid that's done his 3 week course!

Thing is if all the CPS companies were genuinely interested in raising standards then they could see all these people as potential new members and thus much more revenue. Problem with the NICEIC is they dont give a **** unless you are falsely using their logo. Anything else falls on deaf ears. The NICEIC have a roadshow in Inverness soon so I shall be having my voice if I can.

My business is lucky as we do a lot of renewables and commercial work but we do also benefit off these 'bottom feeders' by being called in to fix their faults. Its money for the business but I always feel bad for the customer as they shouldn't have to pay twice. Most are ignorant about competency, qualifications etc.

Only last night a hotel called saying their 'local electrician' couldn't attend an emergancy (no bedroom lights) until sunday. They wanted me to go. 18 months ago I put right this 'local electricians' work as part of an EICR and it cost the hotel a huge amount of cash. But even then they haven't learned anything from it. I suggested they call somebody out from Inverness which is a 2 hour drive each way! I had beer to drink :)

Roll on the Scottish government giving us protected title. Maybe then a body (SELECT) can get some real teeth and kick these people out of the industry (I can live in hope).

Protection of title is coming Richy. It's a question of when rather than if. But protection of title on its own isn't enough, in my opinion. The public needs to be educated about electricians, the work we do and the standards we work to. How this could be achieved in actuality, I'm not sure.
 
Protection of title is coming Richy. It's a question of when rather than if. But protection of title on its own isn't enough, in my opinion. The public needs to be educated about electricians, the work we do and the standards we work to. How this could be achieved in actuality, I'm not sure.
What scares me about any licencing scheme or title protection is which organisations will get their mitts on having the say as to what constitutes an electrician, levels of qualification and so on. The govt is likely to take the recommendations of whoever is shouting loudest, and that is very likely to be those who have most to gain by keeping skills down and labour cheap.
 
There's a saying that you should be careful what you wish for. When the BC notification rules came in, everyone (well, many) thought it would cure many ills - while in practice it just drove a lot of bodging underground, created more BIY, and created a whole new sales pitch for the charlatans.
It was clearly recognised or they wouldn't have relaxed the requirements a few years later.
So what is the protected title likely to mean in practice ? Membership of a scheme ? Yeah, we all know how much that guatantees quality of work :rolleyes: Certain qualifications ? The bar would need to be fairly low or you create a shortage which then promotes BIY and dodgy underground work.
Personally I don't think that is whete the problem lies, rather it relies on general ignorance amongst the public, and lack of any meaningful enforcement against the bodgers due to the limitef rrsources of Trading Standards.
 
What scares me about any licencing scheme or title protection is which organisations will get their mitts on having the say as to what constitutes an electrician, levels of qualification and so on. The govt is likely to take the recommendations of whoever is shouting loudest, and that is very likely to be those who have most to gain by keeping skills down and labour cheap.

When protection of title is eventually introduced it will apply only to electricians who are based in Scotland. My information is that a database containing the details of all registered electricians in Scotland will be built and be administered by SELECT, NICEIC and the SJIB. NICEIC were initially opposed to the proposal but are now fully on board. Only those electricians who hold appropriate, up to date qualifications will be eligible for inclusion on the database. If your name isn't on the database and you as much as even advertise yourself as an electrician you will be committing a criminal offence. My understanding is that electricians whose qualifications are inadequate or have lapsed will be given a time-limited opportunity to get up to speed.

NICEIC Domestic Installers and those who have entered the industry via short courses will have to invest heavily to achieve the recognised level of qualification as described in the video below if they wish to continue working as electricians.

 
When protection of title is eventually introduced it will apply only to electricians who are based in Scotland. My information is that a database containing the details of all registered electricians in Scotland will be built and be administered by SELECT, NICEIC and the SJIB. NICEIC were initially opposed to the proposal but are now fully on board. Only those electricians who hold appropriate, up to date qualifications will be eligible for inclusion on the database. If your name isn't on the database and you as much as even advertise yourself as an electrician you will be committing a criminal offence. My understanding is that electricians whose qualifications are inadequate or have lapsed will be given a time-limited opportunity to get up to speed.

NICEIC Domestic Installers and those who have entered the industry via short courses will have to invest heavily to achieve the recognised level of qualification as described in the video below if they wish to continue working as electricians.

I'd give that an "informative" response if it was still about (@Dan ;)), but as it is you'll have to settle for a like :grin:
 
When protection of title is eventually introduced it will apply only to electricians who are based in Scotland.
Good luck then to those of you bssed a short drive from the border.
NICEIC Domestic Installers and those who have entered the industry via short courses will have to invest heavily to achieve the recognised level of qualification as described ...
Like I said, be careful what you wish for, you might get it :rolleyes: If that is the case then it'll create an instant shortage which you may think is a good thing - meaning you can put your rates up. But it'll also create an environment for chancers and BIY to thrive - which they will since there won't be the resources to enforce it in the same way that the police don't have the resources to deal with theives emptying your van.
 
Oh yes, look forward to the schemes finding that they are losing out if they scrap the lower level memberships. So an equivalent to the current domestic installer level will quickly appear - just under a different name, and of course it will not be the same sort of thing, no nothing at all like the same thing if you belive the announcements the schemes make :rolleyes:
 
Agree on all of comments,being realistically here,obviously there are no excuses for the normal DB’s mainly domestic or even simpler Tpn DBS.
The difficulty in the actual testing becomes apparent in bigger buildings,Office,schools,etc.
Actual Insulation resistance tests,are not easy to perform with many restrictions,R1 + R2,nearly impossible in a major sized building,number of points,if there are no drawings/ plans that too can be a problem,so does incorrect ID of circuits.
Not making excuses here but in reality Eicr are difficult,& I can see why we’re getting trash certs.
 
Oh yes, look forward to the schemes finding that they are losing out if they scrap the lower level memberships. So an equivalent to the current domestic installer level will quickly appear - just under a different name, and of course it will not be the same sort of thing, no nothing at all like the same thing if you belive the announcements the schemes make :rolleyes:
‘Domestic Installers’ don’t exist in Scotland. You’re either SJIB, or AC with NICEIC or SELECT.

Whilst some of your comments are very negative to be fair at least Scotland is trying to do something about his problem. Nothing is perfect but this a step, nay, leap in the right direction
 
I know Part P doesn't affect Scotland but I believe it has had a severe impact on the quality of electrician in the rest of the UK. Do you think this has had a knock on effect to Scotland or is it just the way of things now.
 
A badly done or bogus Eicr is actually far worse imo than having no Eicr.
A bogus/false Eicr gives the illusion that everything is okay or at worst been 'looked over' properly.
This may lead to a dangerous situation.
Kind of like putting a dangerous car back on the road with a bogus MOT.
Those doing these smoke packet pound stretcher Eicrs need to be stopped before some gets hurt or worse....
 
There's a saying that you should be careful what you wish for.
My wish is that the Scottish Government pass legislation that will give protection of title to Scottish electricians as quickly as possible.
When the BC notification rules came in, everyone (well, many) thought it would cure many ills - while in practice it just drove a lot of bodging underground, created more BIY, and created a whole new sales pitch for the charlatans.
It was clearly recognised or they wouldn't have relaxed the requirements a few years later.
I quote from the SELECT publication, Electrician As A Profession: The Case For Regulation, Appendix D, External Threats To Scottish Industry Standards:

Earlier in this report, we have demonstrated that unscrupulous (and unqualified) individuals are taking advantage of weaknesses in the law – and the lack of government action – to put the lives of Scottish householders at risk. There are, however, additional government organised activities which threaten Scottish industry standards further.

Some of these are sponsored by the UK Government and, largely, are currently still confined to England and Wales, but they pose threats to standards in the electrical installation industry in England and Wales but, potentially, in Scotland also.

A little more than a decade ago, Building Regulations specific to the Domestic Sector were introduced in England and Wales for the first time. “Part P” of those regulations relate to electrical work and, in requiring electrical work under those regulations to be signed off by a ‘competent person’ it became obvious that there were insufficient electricians in England and Wales to make that work. As a consequence, standards were dropped with the introduction of individuals called “Domestic Installers”.

Instead of serving a full four/five year apprenticeship to the recognised National Occupational Standards, Domestic Installers could achieve that rank after only a few weeks – typically around three weeks. We estimate that in England and Wales, Domestic Installers now outnumber fully qualified electricians by more than 2:1. These Domestic Installers can now obtain Grade Cards south of the Border and so are able to get their businesses listed on supposedly reputable registers of electrical companies.

The Select Committee for Communities and Local Government have expressed concern about this situation and some steps have been taken to rectify this, but Domestic Installers with three weeks’ training are so far away from qualified electricians that few are likely to ever make the grade – or to want to. In the meantime, the Department of Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) has accepted Domestic Installer as a route to qualifying to install Microrenewable Devices. Such people now operate across the UK under the auspices of BEIS because that activity is a reserved matter.

With such downskilling taking place under the guidance of the UK Government, this carries potential threats for Scotland also.
So what is the protected title likely to mean in practice ?
It will mean that if you do not possess the relevant level of qualifications that are necessary to safely undertake electrical installation work and are not a registered electrician, you will commit a criminal offence if you so much a even advertise yourself as an electrician.
Membership of a scheme ? Yeah, we all know how much that guatantees quality of work :rolleyes:
I wouldn't use that particular terminology. I think membership of a recognised trade body would be a better description. In Scotland, the overwhelming majority of electrical contractors who are members of a recognised trade body are either members of SELECT and/or NICEIC.
Certain qualifications ? The bar would need to be fairly low or you create a shortage which then promotes BIY and dodgy underground work.
I disagree. Raising the bar is the only way that we can ever expect to see a corresponding rise in industry standards. In my perception, the industry has to free itself from the shackles that the race to bottom imposes otherwise we will continue to witness declining standards.
Personally I don't think that is whete the problem lies, rather it relies on general ignorance amongst the public, and lack of any meaningful enforcement against the bodgers due to the limitef rrsources of Trading Standards.
I agree that there is great need for the public to be educated about electricians, the work we do, and how our industry operates. I also agree that agencies such as Trading Standards need to adopt a more robust approach when pursuing those whose shoddy workmanship imperils the public.
 

Attachments

  • SELECT Report - Electrician As A Profession.pdf
    3.8 MB · Views: 3
Good luck then to those of you bssed a short drive from the border.
Thank you. :)
Like I said, be careful what you wish for, you might get it :rolleyes:
I sure hope so! Fingers crossed!!
If that is the case then it'll create an instant shortage which you may think is a good thing - meaning you can put your rates up.
This isn't just about money, this is also about raising industry standards, and this can only be a good thing. If protection of title results in a purge of the unqualified and other rogue operators, then great, that too can only be a good thing and I'm all for it.
But it'll also create an environment for chancers and BIY to thrive - which they will since there won't be the resources to enforce it in the same way that the police don't have the resources to deal with theives emptying your van.
I disagree. Under the present arrangement whereby anyone in Scotland can call themselves an electrician, advertise themselves as such and then proceed to undertake electrical installation work while not possessing the requires skills, experience and qualifications to safely do so, those to whom you refer are already thriving.
 
Oh yes, look forward to the schemes finding that they are losing out if they scrap the lower level memberships.
That scenario cannot ever happen in Scotland by virtue of the fact that no such "schemes" exist up here. Thankfully neither do 'Domestic Installers'.
So an equivalent to the current domestic installer level will quickly appear - just under a different name, and of course it will not be the same sort of thing, no nothing at all like the same thing if you belive the announcements the schemes make :rolleyes:
No. A database jointly administered by SELECT, NICEIC and the SJIB will be set-up. 'Domestic Installers' will not be included, only electricians who possess the relevant qualifications.
 
I know Part P doesn't affect Scotland but I believe it has had a severe impact on the quality of electrician in the rest of the UK. Do you think this has had a knock on effect to Scotland or is it just the way of things now.
The answer to your question can be found in Appendix D, External Threats To Scottish Industry Standards, of the attached SELECT publication, Electrician As A Profession: The Case For Regulation.
 

Attachments

  • SELECT Report - Electrician As A Profession.pdf
    3.8 MB · Views: 2
That scenario cannot ever happen in Scotland by virtue of the fact that no such "schemes" exist up here. Thankfully neither do 'Domestic Installers'.

No. A database jointly administered by SELECT, NICEIC and the SJIB will be set-up. 'Domestic Installers' will not be included, only electricians who possess the relevant qualifications.
There is no such thing as a Domestic Installer, only electricians who possess the relevant qualifications and experience who choose to do electrical works in a domestic setting can we please get away from the term Domestic Installer.
 

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