Your going to laugh lads!!!!!!! NVQ3 - Domestic!!!!!

[Electricalserv]

I love this little statement from Napit and this is going to ruffle a few feathers.

For those choosing the qualification route, the Level 3 NVQ Certificate in Installing, Testing and Ensuring Compliance of Electrical Installation Work in Dwellings should be available from the 1st January 2012 as the minimum qualification level for Qualified Supervisors responsible for electrical work carried out in domestic properties which comes under Part P of the Building Regulations (for England and Wales).


My bold!!!!

NVQ3 - for domestic premises will be available from 2012.

Looks like the City & Guilds NVQ3 now has a little sister.

 

[Electricalserv]

Serv you have and never will hear me decry anyone doing domestic work, personally apart from core drilling it is my least favourite type of electrical work, I do not like it, the same that you do not like to do basket work, which again I don't like doing or tray work, which I don't mind.

If i had my way I would be building switch gear and panels doing all the wiring and connecting DB's as I enjoy that.

I think your missing my point, though I hate domestic work I can do it, though I hate tray I can do it, I love MICC work and can do it and I can do any type of containment work known to man, and some not known.

Why would you condone a practice that is not going to train a man to do as many differing types of work that the industry calls for. I can only surmise that your in favour of dumbing down the industry.

I am in favour of letting us Domestic time served lads who never sat the full apprentiship get on with our sector and no longer having to listen to JIB commercial & Industrial sparks moan about domestic electricians not being ''proper sparks''! Moaning about the industry failing us because of 5DW's.

It will all be a thing of the past.

Malcom you and others don't see that the times have changed different sectors do different kind of work so we don't need to be qualified in tray work etc etc. I'm sure if most of us domestic sparks could turn our hands to it aswell after a good go at it!

But if we don't do it we can't put it in our portfolio. So the right thing has happened the powers that be (who are in a better position than me and you to judge) have spoken & they've done a fantastic job for us domestic lads!

We are no going to be recognised as fully competent tradesman again. Whether other like it or not!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Your right son times have changed, but change is not necessary better.

Bat this about all day as you will I just know that IMO some in the industry have accepted the watering down of it. Not all of us old guys have a dinosaur approach to things, thinking that changes are bad, the same as the newer guys in the industry should not think that all the older practices are wrong.

It's your industry now son, and if your happy with the way it is going then I won't argue with that.

 

[sbrown2]

Its not the watering down its just the cycle of industrial life. One minute we want people to specialise and then when moneys tight we want them to be multiskilled. In my opinion the core subjects relating to the domestic and then commercial/industrial sectors will be similar. That is you must still have to have electrical theory at the centre for either NVQ. The implications of your actions if you do not conform to H&S legislation can potentially be as drastic in relation to life whether a domestic, commercial or industrial electrician.
I agree that its not that you won't be able to span other sectors its just you will have to pay the schemes to do this example

1) I pay the JIB so that I can work on commercial and industrial site,
2) In my day job they pay the IET for membership as it gives credence with some of our customers,
3) I'm just going through the application process with NAPIT for competent person schemes
4) I'm just going through MCS application with NAPIT

I reckon the cost has got to be near the £1500. My view is that with my initial quals and all of the experience I have ammassed I should not require all this accreditation to work but I am not prepared to work under the radar.

All the new quals will do is stop the five day wonders getting to QS so quickly.

 

[Des 56]

Whilst I'm not going to get embroiled in this debate,because it is for the younger ones to have to deal with
I notice that there are current rules/opinions that would need to be altered with the schemes for it to come about
Here is a Napit rule on gaining entry and qualifications


Under the electrical scheme do you have a Domestic Installers Scheme?

We do not have a Domestic Installers Scheme because there are far too may people doing short courses and calling themselves 'Domestic Electricians'. Due to the danger not only to the consumer but also from shock risk to the installer we have two scopes for Electrical one for Electricians and one for non electricians that carry out a small type of minor electrical work as part of their main trade. There are also a number of properties in the UK that have a 3 Phase supply and therefore it is hard to justify a Domestic Installer Scheme.



This is posted as just something for you to have a think about when agreeing with segregation of the sparks trade

Serve.you are a member of Napit I believe ?
How do you see that the status of the proposed Domestic electrician can be equated with the Napit requirements, if domestic work is segregated from other sectors

I know that in practice,they do register almost all who have the fee,but the organisation will have to back track on its long stated policy of not recognising the status on its own

As it stands,(at the least on paper anyway),Napit could not accept anyone with just domestic qualifications,

 

[baldsparkies]

I haven't read the entire thread but this press release from the NIC explains the why's & wherefors quite well I think.

Read it, but , once again it refers to NVQ3 or equivelant. Or equivelant ?? What does that mean ???
Is the 2360 part 2 equivelant to NVQ3 ? Is the leval 3 2391 equivelant to NVQ3 ? Is the leval 3 17th edition equivelant to NVQ3. Does a JIB gold card as Approved Electrician or an Electrical site managers card give you NVQ3 Status as an equivelant. Please just show me where they actually say what is to be deemed and accepted as an NVQ3 equivelant. Its not much to ask, and without it, a lot of qualified sparks are going to be left out in the cold. And right alongside the very people they are trying to close the door on, ie the non qualified persons. As said I'm already a Qualifying Supervisor but what if I wasn't ?? Please just point me to the info that clarifies what Ive just been talking about, cus I can't see it.

 

[kung]

Cant see it happening although it would be good ! take our NVQ 3 along to the LABC as proof of comp and they can scrap our need to be part of a scheme ! lol rotfl lmao an all that yer i cant see that happening either !

 

[Electricalserv]

Whilst I'm not going to get embroiled in this debate,because it is for the younger ones to have to deal with
I notice that there are current rules/opinions that would need to be altered with the schemes for it to come about
Here is a Napit rule on gaining entry and qualifications


Under the electrical scheme do you have a Domestic Installers Scheme?

We do not have a Domestic Installers Scheme because there are far too may people doing short courses and calling themselves 'Domestic Electricians'. Due to the danger not only to the consumer but also from shock risk to the installer we have two scopes for Electrical one for Electricians and one for non electricians that carry out a small type of minor electrical work as part of their main trade. There are also a number of properties in the UK that have a 3 Phase supply and therefore it is hard to justify a Domestic Installer Scheme.



This is posted as just something for you to have a think about when agreeing with segregation of the sparks trade

Serve.you are a member of Napit I believe ?
How do you see that the status of the proposed Domestic electrician can be equated with the Napit requirements, if domestic work is segregated from other sectors

I know that in practice,they do register almost all who have the fee,but the organisation will have to back track on its long stated policy of not recognising the status on its own

As it stands,(at the least on paper anyway),Napit could not accept anyone with just domestic qualifications,

Hi Des, it won't change anything. Napit will still not call their members domestic installers. They will still be Electricians, because the core qualifications they previously asked for....A tech cert level 3, 17th Edition & 2391 will still be a must for a QS.

Nothing will change except 5 day wonders won't be able to get in with out the domestic NVQ3 and a tech cert. They where allowed to use their 5 day course as an equivalent to the tech cert. Not anymore!

This benefits all who have done tech certs from level 2 right the way through to 2391 but never had a chance to do the NVQ3.

 

[Electricalserv]

Read it, but , once again it refers to NVQ3 or equivelant. Or equivelant ?? What does that mean ???
Is the 2360 part 2 equivelant to NVQ3 ? Is the leval 3 2391 equivelant to NVQ3 ? Is the leval 3 17th edition equivelant to NVQ3. Does a JIB gold card as Approved Electrician or an Electrical site managers card give you NVQ3 Status as an equivelant. Please just show me where they actually say what is to be deemed and accepted as an NVQ3 equivelant. Its not much to ask, and without it, a lot of qualified sparks are going to be left out in the cold. And right alongside the very people they are trying to close the door on, ie the non qualified persons. As said I'm already a Qualifying Supervisor but what if I wasn't ?? Please just point me to the info that clarifies what Ive just been talking about, cus I can't see it.

Nobody knows what the equivalent is mate. NOt even the schemes or JIB, they just beat around the bush!

 

[baldsparkies]

Nobody knows what the equivalent is mate. NOt even the schemes or JIB, they just beat around the bush!

If what you say is true serv, then they have failed us all. They simply haven't finished the job.
I agree with the NVQ3 (Or equivelant) being the way to go for a QS, I also think that a QS should hold the 2391 and 17th edition certs as well.
But as said, there are going to be a lot of qualified sparks left out in the cold unless the powers to be and scheme providers accept that NVQ3 equivelants need to be clarified and made plain to both sparks and the people administering any new criteria, BEFORE it comes into force. It was the part P money grabbers and the 5 day wonder courses that got us in this mess in the first place. Get something sorted YES. But for Petes sake SORT it before you put it into place. and that means before 2012.

Another point, I feel that once equivelant has been clarified, it shouldn't matter if your a QS now or not. What about the guys who are already QS's without having a qualified status. Every QS on there next assesment including existing should (Once the criteria is plain and truly sorted out) Have an NVQ3. OR an equivelant as per a recognised list. AND 2391 and 17th edition. If they don't have that on there next assesment, there out. Then you are truly getting rid of the non qualified. (But I had a big fat wedge in my wallet and paid my way in on a 5 dayer) TO BAD we have seen sense, you need a lot more than that to be a QS.

 

[Electricalserv]

The NVQ3 equivalent for me is anything before the NVQ3 was introduced.


I think that is the AM2 & 2360 PART 2 COMBINED!

 

[Electricalserv]

Why don't you older generation lads jump on the new NVQ3's next year. If your industrial take the diploma if your domestic take the new domestic.


I'll have to take it, but I'm bloody made up it won't involve any work that I don't do. No matter how much it costs its worth its weight in gold!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Serv I'm going to play the grumpy old git card, and if I wanted to register for Part P as a sole trader, which I still am by the way, so it won't affect me as such, but for the likes of Baldsparkie for example, that have done an apprenticeship, got the 236 part 1 & 2, a gold card approved electrician, a platinum managers cards, 2391. 2382, and 40 yrs in the industry, and was told that I had to do an NVQ3 and be assessed by some spotty faced yoik, I would not be impressed.

For guys like Baldsparkie and can't see that happening.

 

[Electricalserv]

Serv I'm going to play the grumpy old git card, and if I wanted to register for Part P as a sole trader, which I still am by the way, so it won't affect me as such, but for the likes of Baldsparkie for example, that have done an apprenticeship, got the 236 part 1 & 2, a gold card approved electrician, a platinum managers cards, 2391. 2382, and 40 yrs in the industry, and was told that I had to do an NVQ3 and be assessed by some spotty faced yoik, I would not be impressed.

For guys like Baldsparkie and can't see that happening.

And I completely understand that. Thats why the equivalent needs to be announced

 

[baldsparkies]

Well lads some sense at last. Just spoke to my scheme provider mainly NIC EIC. There take on all this is that things are far from being finalised.
They DO see where i am coming from and said even if i wasn't a QS I would have no problems in becoming one with my current qualifications, and time served experiance. The chap added (In fact it would be an insult to do otherwise) T
he powers to be are still talking over and drawing up plans regarding specifics on this. That does indeed include WHAT IS AN NVQ3 EQUIVELANT.
There aim is to STOP inexperianced and unqualified persons from becoming a QS, through some fast track network.
The concern is that our industry is becoming diluted, and the floodgates need to be closed. "SLAM".
I am glad I made the call, I will be glad to see the sense behind all this becoming clear, and I will be glad to see it implemented.
It's going to be good for the industry. Its OUR industry. Its an industry for ELECTRICIANS. So to the rest of em, earn it like we did, or KEEP OUT.

 

[malcolmsanford]

That draft you posted in post way back on post 30 odd did say on the bit about the criteria for Domestic Electrician that an Installation Electrician ( and they used bold font), could have the accreditation of Domestic electrician put on the card, so I assume that gold card JIB card holders will not need this NVQ, so that will be one.

 

[Engineer54]

I can't believe this thread is still steaming along!!...lol!!

As far as i can see, the only person in favour here of segregating our industry is Electricalserv. we have a few sitting on the fence, and a few don't knows!! The vast majority here, can see that segregation is not going to do anyone any good, ...short or long term. Except of course the employers and and those with there greedy hand held out for your money!!!

Far from enhancing our industry or improving the status of qualified electricians it will do the exact opposite, you can bet your last pennies on that!!

Electricians should ALL be trained to a good standard minimum level, a level that will give him/her the qualifications to allow them to choose any field or category in our industry not just ''one''. If you think that the present level accepted by the scam providers etc, is not accptable then get the entry level changed, not by some buckshee new qualification, but by what's out there already.

Stop trying to make out that Domestic is something different or special, because it's NOT, ...and never has been!!! Only the scam providers are trying to make it so, for there own benifit not yours or the industries....

 

[Electricalserv]

Hows it segregating the industry? Its offering a qualification on par with the current NVQ3 for domestic only. Removing parts that are invalid fro Part P work!


Its an excellent idea. The pros's far outweigh the con's.


Pro's:

No more 5 Day Wonders.
Fully Qualified Domestic electricians only - Assessed and badged!
No more arguments about the industry letting computer technicians and policemen in.
More work for the real sparks - no competition from computer JIM!

Con's

Seperation from the Commercial & Industrial work - which is very, very different!


I think the problem here is that alot (not all) of the current NVQ3 sparks feel as though they are above the domestic market and don't see why an NVQ3 should be introduced to call a domestic electrician Approved!

I think from the older generation their argument is Where do we fit in? We are already time served, assessed and fully qualified and badged before this NVQ3 lark turned up. These guys I agree with. They should not have to sit any further qualification!

 

[Engineer54]

Well lads some sense at last. Just spoke to my scheme provider mainly NIC EIC. There take on all this is that things are far from being finalised.
They DO see where i am coming from and said even if i wasn't a QS I would have no problems in becoming one with my current qualifications, and time served experiance. The chap added (In fact it would be an insult to do otherwise) T
he powers to be are still talking over and drawing up plans regarding specifics on this. That does indeed include WHAT IS AN NVQ3 EQUIVELANT.
There aim is to STOP inexperianced and unqualified persons from becoming a QS, through some fast track network.
The concern is that our industry is becoming diluted, and the floodgates need to be closed. "SLAM".
I am glad I made the call, I will be glad to see the sense behind all this becoming clear, and I will be glad to see it implemented.
It's going to be good for the industry. Its OUR industry. Its an industry for ELECTRICIANS. So to the rest of em, earn it like we did, or KEEP OUT.

That's well Ripe, coming from the very same people that set those minimum qualifications levels for entry into their scam provider company.... So now there trying to slam the gate shut well after the horse has bolted, and i suppose that all those poorly qualified fast track sparks that are presently paying members, will be exempt from any new requirements. ....They are not after all going to see their income/profits fall thru the ceiling are they?? ...lol!!!

 

[Ponty Massive]

I've just read this thread from start to finish and can no longer make sense. The original arguement was providing a minimum qualification for domestic installers (I think??). IMO I think this is a step in the right direction.

However; unless the industry is going to advertise part P and prosecute people who are not registered, then it makes no difference to the cowboys anyway. More hoops to jump through, more expense and matey down the pub will do it cash in hand!!

I'm of the old school where an electrician did an apprenticeship, kept logbooks and was assessed on all aspects of the industy (dommestic, commercial and industrial). If I hadn't of been lucky enough to have had an appenticeship then maybe I would think differently. I would still not class someone who can only do domestic work as an electrician however, things have changed over the years and I understand we must move with the times.

Providing a higher standard for a DI (IMO) will be a good thing !!

 

[Engineer54]

Hows it segregating the industry? Its offering a qualification on par with the current NVQ3 for domestic only. Removing parts that are invalid fro Part P work!


Its an excellent idea. The pros's far outweigh the con's.


Pro's:

No more 5 Day Wonders.
Fully Qualified Domestic electricians only - Assessed and badged!
No more arguments about the industry letting computer technicians and policemen in.
More work for the real sparks - no competition from computer JIM!

Con's

Seperation from the Commercial & Industrial work - which is very, very different!


I think the problem here is that alot (not all) of the current NVQ3 sparks feel as though they are above the domestic market and don't see why an NVQ3 should be introduced to call a domestic electrician Approved!

I think from the older generation their argument is Where do we fit in? We are already time served, assessed and fully qualified and badged before this NVQ3 lark turned up. These guys I agree with. They should not have to sit any further qualification!

I don't think you can see what you are saying here, not in the bigger picture anyway. There is no need for any special qualification for domestic working absolutly NONE.

Alas, i don't think you've listened to anyone here, that have and has given very good reasons why there shouldn't be any special NVQ3 for domestic (or any other area). You have only listened to yourself, because it suits your aims. You can't see that there are qualifications out there now already, that would bring an end to the 5 day wonders as you put it. ...and that i feel is your main goal, ....That and getting an easier ''Approved'' status from the JIB!!!


This has got nothing to do with where the older Qualified sparks stand as far as QS status goes, this is all about your aims to segregate Domestic from the rest of the electrical industry, just a crazy idea all round!!!

 

[Electricalserv]

I don't think you can see what you are saying here, not in the bigger picture anyway. There is no need for any special qualification for domestic working absolutly NONE.

Alas, i don't think you've listened to anyone here, that have and has given very good reasons why there shouldn't be any special NVQ3 for domestic (or any other area). You have only listened to yourself, because it suits your aims. You can't see that there are qualifications out there now already, that would bring an end to the 5 day wonders as you put it. ...and that i feel is your main goal, ....That and getting an easier ''Approved'' status from the JIB!!!


This has got nothing to do with where the older Qualified sparks stand as far as QS status goes, this is all about your aims to segregate Domestic from the rest of the electrical industry, just a crazy idea all round!!!

Its not my idea, I don't make the rules and I haven't printed the articles. Its the industry. People at the top above you & me and its their decision!


It won't be an easier approved card it will be an approved card for a domestic electrician. Thats all I need.

 

[Electricalserv]

This has got nothing to do with where the older Qualified sparks stand as far as QS status goes, this is all about your aims to segregate Domestic from the rest of the electrical industry, just a crazy idea all round!!!

Everybody E54 thinks the whole press release was because of MY aims and somehow I have infiltrated the powers that be. Shocking!


Its bloody segregated as it is. Its called PART P no scheme or no Council you can't do work in dwellings.

This is tightening the quals to be allowed to do so!

 

[1shortcircuit]

Some people ought to utilise their time in a more productive manner, like going out and finding work or considering ways to further advance their business.

Also, could someone bring me up to date please? I was under the impression that these fast track Domestic Installers were referred to as 5 week wonders but it seems on reading some comments here that it's now a 5 day wonder?

Feel free to refer to me as a 5 minute wonder if you wish Hopefully it'll get some of you off. I on the other hand will continue to consider ways of progressing up the big long ladder whilst some of you moan and groan about the influx of competition.

15 pages and nearly 12 hours of blah blah blah lol I thought Electricians were bloody intelligent members of society... that was until I read a number of threads/posts on here.

I'm sure if some of the old skool sparks who are no longer with us today could see what this trade was coming to they would be turning in their grave!

 

[Baconhead]

This is it though E54. If you don't require Tray, Basket work etc etc. Why should you have to do a qualification that encorporates that to be a member of a PART P scheme? Part P is domestic only, therefore you should only be assessed on domestic work!

Every trained spark should beable to do Tray,Basket and Condiut work as they are part of the basics when learning.
And by just doing an NVQ or whatever they call them just for the domestic installer would stop anyonly domestic trained spark progressing on to the good stuff doing industrial and commercial work.

It's like saying D/I can't make off a large SWA cable because he's only trained upto say making 25mm off or he can't install a switch greater then 100amp because he's only trained to do upto 100amp not 250-300 plus switches.

 

[baldsparkies]

Well not quite at the turning in my grave stage yet BUT. If some bloke becomes a QS with a scheme provider after covering a 5 week 5 day or 5 minute course, then yes its enough for any fully trained up spark to turn in the proverbial. But then thats exactly what the scheme providers are trying to stamp out with this NVQ3 thing. Fair play for anyone proggressing up the big long ladder, and when you get there you deserve recognition.
In the meantime yours is making the tea, thats how I remember it when I was 5 months in, and rightly so cus with five months under my belt, I knew Jack Sh#t.
We all learn by our mistakes, maybe the powers to be are indeed back tracking because they have seen the error of there ways and are trying to do something about it. Good for them.

 

[Electricalserv]

Every trained spark should beable to do Tray,Basket and Condiut work as they are part of the basics when learning.
And by just doing an NVQ or whatever they call them just for the domestic installer would stop anyonly domestic trained spark progressing on to the good stuff doing industrial and commercial work.

It's like saying D/I can't make off a large SWA cable because he's only trained upto say making 25mm off or he can't install a switch greater then 100amp because he's only trained to do upto 100amp not 250-300 plus switches.

Your last comments are right. The new NVQ3 would limit the electricians qualification. They would not have a qualification you need to say you can do all of the above stuff. But as I've said again & again. Someone who chooses to do domestic work only only needs an NVQ3 in domestic work.


The option is still there to take the current NVQ3 which covers all scopes.Its still there

So where is everyones problem? This new qualification stops non-sparks from working on domestic premises at their own will. They can't become QS's and start up one man bands!


This is the reason why this qual has been introduced and the reason the commercial & industrial work has been taken away from it is because domestic electricians don't use most commercial and industrial methods!! Its just facts here!

 

[pennywise]

An NVQ in domestic only wouldn't stop the fast trackers, before you know it training companies will be springing up all over the place catering for this new course and condensing it down to a few weeks or months with all the portfolios being staged and made up and If they specify the person has to be employed in the industry to get on the NVQ, whats preventing someone setting up an "electrical company" that just so happens to have a massive turn over of apprentices who pay the company a small fortune to learn. I'm not saying it's a bad thing it's just from my experience the NVQ is a bit of a mickey mouse qual, the amount of guys that ask me for my portfolio to copy is unbelievable! and the assessors basically spoon feed people just to get them past so they get there grants. This is of course my own personal opinion

 

[Spudnik]

Fellas,

There hasnt even been a proper finalised statement yet, and so ALL of this is pure speculation.

As it has now reached 6 pages and there is no real evidence of what will be i am closing this for now.

Im sure, once an announcement has been made then there will be other threads or we can reopen this one.

I thank you.