Customer enquires about backup power for residential site

[1Justin]

A large rambling (~50 room I'd guess) old folks home where I have done minor works before called me up and asked for a quote to "Wire up our generator". (I know this place, and was expecting the inevitable already).

Um.. "Wire it up .. to what?" "Perhaps you have underestimated the investment needed here.."

... "The whole building, for when we have a power cut".

So quaint, but mildly amusing. I went for a look to satisfy my curiosity.

The rusty Ebay 3KW Kawasaki, with a nubbly bit of 2.5 T&E emerging was revealed as expected, with a mystified builder diligently working away, - since for some reason he had been asked to build a rainproof cover over it!

View attachment 26568

I did spend - Oh.. ten seconds on site for a bit of a smile.


But more seriously. Where would the starting point be for a large residential site like this to go to for serious, BS7671 compliant UPS/back-up? I (If they actually serious at investing.. and I suspect from what I have observed so far that they probably aren't.)

 

[davesparks]

I'd start with surveying the site and working out the max demand, and also carrying out a load study to measure the demand.

Then you can start to think about the size of generator required, bearing in mind any likely or foreseeable change in load.

Bearing in mind that in the middle of winter when power cuts are most likely to occur there is likely to be a greater load from extra electric heaters in such a building.

 

[Richard Burns]

You might also need a noise survey to ensure that the generator would not cause nuisance to either residents or neighbours. ("discussion" going on about this for a company near me!).
Also consider the space requirements at the supply for the changeover operation and the desirability or not of automatic changeover.

 

[1Justin]

It would need a changeover. This is new stuff to me. I am trying to get some idea of it without actually spending any time if you see what I mean. They are rubbish at paying bills and don't want to spend anything. (My last bill outstanding still after 3 months). The place is packed full of old folks (very sad, you know the kind of thing) and is mad with staff and zimmer frames.
It's almost impossible to risk switching anything off (trial and error), for fear of plunging them all into the dark and chaos ensuing.
The big old DB's are a nightmare with hardly anything labelled, and some funny stuff going on which I have scarcely scraped the surface of, (other than to note last time I was there to just replace a switch, that 2 separate breakers were able to isolate the one circuit!). No sign of an RCD anywhere.

 

[Richard Burns]

OK £400 for a manual changeover switch, £8000 for a 30kVA AVR smoothed output diesel generator, £1500 for a sound limiting kiosk with ventilation.
(2 weeks work to fully upgrade the installation on a progressive basis) and two days to reconfigure the supply and a day to install the generator.

So job done (if they can evacuate the property for 2 weeks) for a miserly price of £13,000.

These are almost random numbers but would give you an idea of a likely ball park, even though you only have to make the circuits safe, this could be a lot more work and cost.

 

[Engineer54]

I am trying to get some idea of it without actually spending any time if you see what I mean.

Then don't waste you're time at all then, because this little exercise is going to take plenty of your time, just to asses the loading or any load shedding and the means to facilitate any such installation into the existing electrical installation. You by your own admission, do not have the sort of background to make those sort of assessments and decisions

There are plenty of specialised contractors around that can assess and design a system appropriate to the type of customer requirements, including any legal requirements involved etc.... The better ones can be worth their weight in gold...

 

[Engineer54]

These are almost random numbers but would give you an idea of a likely ball park, even though you only have to make the circuits safe, this could be a lot more work and cost.

No, ...i'd go as far as saying, they are totally random numbers!!

You wouldn't get away with a manual C/O switch at such a facility.
Where did you pull 30KVA from??
Which renders the rest of the assessment up in the air....

I think you are way outside of a meaningful ballpark figure, You'll be needing to think of a much bigger number than 13 grand for such an installation!!!

 

[1Justin]

I just told them to find a specialist. (And also given them option to employ me on Consultancy basis while I do the research and surveys !). - Probably the last I'll hear of it.
Rgds

 

[Richard Burns]

No, ...i'd go as far as saying, they are totally random numbers!!

You wouldn't get away with a manual C/O switch at such a facility.
Where did you pull 30KVA from??
Which renders the rest of the assessment up in the air....

I think you are way outside of a meaningful ballpark figure, You'll be needing to think of a much bigger number than 13 grand for such an installation!!!

I am pretty certain you are fully correct.
I was really just trying to emphasise that it will not be worth trying to work out.

 

[1Justin]

Hi Richard.
That was in the ball-park of what I was thinking without having gone into any detail at all. Compared to the ~£20 they have probably spent so far, it would probably to scare them too much.

Major work on that place will be huge upheaval for them. - (Let's re-house 50 old folk for while I switch the power off!). Probably no other way, and I suspect they'll continue to do nothing and live in it till they fold the business or till something forces their hand.

Rgds

 

[Engineer54]

I just told them to find a specialist. (And also given them option to employ me on Consultancy basis while I do the research and surveys !). - Probably the last I'll hear of it.
Rgds

Would you really want to be held to account if you got your numbers/assessments wrong?? There is a lot more to this type of work than first meets the eye. Setting yourself up as a consultant without the necessary background is a fools errand, and one that could potentially wipe you out financially.... DON'T DO IT!!

 

[1Justin]

Point well made. Thanks.

 

[Knobhead]

Would you really want to be held to account if you got your numbers/assessments wrong?? There is a lot more to this type of work than first meets the eye. Setting yourself up as a consultant without the necessary background is a fools errand, and one that could potentially wipe you out financially.... DON'T DO IT!!

Your no fun any more!

 

[telectrix]

watch out tony. i think he's after your grumpy git title.

 

[Engineer54]

watch out tony. i think he's after your grumpy git title.

Me a Grumpy Git, ...No Never!!! lol!!

 

[Knobhead]

I just told them to find a specialist. (And also given them option to employ me on Consultancy basis while I do the research and surveys !). - Probably the last I'll hear of it.
Rgds

This intrigues me, why did you think they would retain you as a consultant when you’ve recommended they get a specialist?

 

[tazz]

To be honest I give up on nursing homes, the owners or companies are not uk based, and don`t really care.....its all down to cost. They now employ blue chip companies, who are jack of all trades. We get called back to the homes, even tho we don`t service anymore, because these companies don`t have the software or training to program the nurse call and fire alarm systems....so now the agent now pays the maintenance company, who pays Intercall, who pay us.....to sort the problem....three times the cost they used to pay,

 

[1Justin]

the owners or companies are not uk based, and don`t really care.....its all down to cost.

I didn't mention this at the time, - not having any personal stance on that current hot potato. So that was perceptive.. In this case you hit the nail on the head. It is, as you say, all down to cost.

I'm convinced now I'll hear no more, and last time I worked there I did say not again! (And they still haven't paid me - three months on). I think it's only a matter of time before they need to turf out the residents and get the whole electrics dealt with properly. Meanwhile, muddle along, cost is king, and if it work.. who cares.

 

[trev]

I did some work on a care home a few months back, what they did was move the residents around from one flat to another. Move them out, all work done, move them back. The communal areas were done when the flats were finished. Was a bloody nightmare of a job.
All the flats rewired in grey T&E, communal areas wired in LSF. The redundant grey T&E was left in place so the benefit of using LSF is somewhat lost on me.

 

[GMES]

Op If you are serious then send me a pm. We install Ats panels and generators on a weekly basis one of my customers design and build generators and the change over panels, we then install them on site.
However you won't get a lot for 13k, that won't even pay for the Generator.
But like I say if you need help send me a pm and we can have a chat.

 

[Pete999]

For a place like the one you're talking about, rightly or wrongly I assume there some medical issues for the old folk, that may or may not require a constant supply, if that is the case you may like to consider a "no break set up" an on line UPs to take up the load whilst the Genny is picking up it's speed and coming on line, and taking up the load.

 

[1Justin]

Hi GMES. I'm happy to put you in touch anyway if you want to follow it up entirely yourself. They are not terribly communicative I have to say. My only contact has been with a guy I can only half understand who then doesn't show, and a friendly Matron who is too busy for anything other than her care work.

 

[shanky887614]

Op If you are serious then send me a pm. We install Ats panels and generators on a weekly basis one of my customers design and build generators and the change over panels, we then install them on site.
However you won't get a lot for 13k, that won't even pay for the Generator.
But like I say if you need help send me a pm and we can have a chat.

thats for sure, your looking at say £500 a day labour just on panel mods etc

 

[Knobhead]

I enjoyed taking on large projects, if it involved tying in with existing kit it was time to reach the headache pills.

But there again, I’ve never had to worry about elderly residents. I wouldn’t like to take this on.