New sub board for shed swa advice.

[Jcamerz]

Hi guys new to the forum after bit of advice. My family are installing a new shed in the garden and require a lot of power ie few sockets, lights. I am planning of running a swa fed from 32a mcb from the main board to a sub board.
Have a question-
Shall I install the new 32a mcb in the main board on the RCD side or main switch side?
Thanks

 

[netblindpaul]

Oh and just for your delectation 134.1.1

 

[netblindpaul]

Also 510.3

 

[sparksburnout]

Is it not just common sense that it should be earthed at the supply end? What if it got severed completely and then re-energised, the armour would not be earthed. Mind you round here there is loads of it not earthed at all, seems to be a bit of a blind spot with a lot of contractors.

 

[johnduffell]

Gawd this is like watching an impending train wreck.

A disagreement is merely an opportunity to learn something new! I certainly did, not sure about anyone else..

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The EAWR does not apply to a domestic installation.
SWA should be earthed, otherwise it won’t work as designed.
It should a earthed or connected to the same earthing system as used by the protective device protecting the SWA.
Connecting the armour to one of the cores at the load end of the cable would require the Zs measurement would have to be taken at the supply end of the armour.
Not sure whether the Zs would then be low enough for the protective device to operate?

 

[telectrix]

i think EAWR does apply to domestic installations, inasmuch as during any works carried out on the installation, and also the fact that you could consider housewives ( and house husbands for the PC loonies) to be working, even if only using a dishwasher. tin hat secured with cable ties and a bit of sticky tape.

 

[telectrix]

duplicate

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Sorry but no.
The EAWR applies to employees and self employed persons while they are carrying out work tasks.
The only time a domestic installation would fall within the remit of the EAWR is if there were servants or domestic staff working there.
The EAWR would not apply to the installation, but would apply to the work practices of a tradesperson working in a domestic installation.

 

[telectrix]

i agree. with that. myhousewife analogy may be a bit misleading, but it applies not only to the electrician working there on the installation, but to the safety of other trades e.g. tilers, woodbutchers, gas fitters, etc. ( sod plumbers, they don't deserve consideration. .).

 

[Deleted member 9648]

We work to bs7671 in normal installations. As long as the disconnection time is met there is only a requirment to earth a conductive part that is part of a cable, no set in stone requirement of where. Nobody is ever going to be prosecuted for earthing at the load end and meeting ADS requirements,and to suggest so is ridiculous.
For small SWA cables (1.5/2.5/4.0 etc) with a cpc on shortish runs I'll frequently banjo one end only, whichever end is most convenient. I can see no point in making additional work doing both ends. Longer runs and larger distribution circuits with higher fault currents I'll do both ends.
NICEIC AC and our inspector has never queried it.

 

[ferg]

I have a vague memory of a reg somewhere that stated it should be earthed at at least one end and 'preferably' the supply end.

 

[Devonchris]

I know The HASAWA doesn't apply to domestic property or servants, and i thought EAWR was the same. However on searching i found this.

Electricity at Work Regulations 1989.

Appendix
(para 5(5))

Electrical safety and enforcement in domestic premises
1 HSW Act s.3 and EAW Regulations apply to installation, maintenance and repair work in domestic premises. The Consumer Protection Act applies only to the provision of electrical goods or products, eg sockets etc but not to their installation.

2 Therefore, there is a possibility of inspectors becoming involved in questions of electrical safety at domestic premises. Unlike gas safety, however, there are no specific regulations. Inspectors have no powers of entry unless work activity is in progress and there are no requirements to report defects.

It goes on. Here's a link if your interested.
Its in the appendix.

OC 480/2: The electricity at work regulations 1989 - http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/ocs/400-499/480_2.htm#para27

 

[Dave OCD]

What are these occasions then?

Ok, how about a supply to an outside socket or shed where you're coming from an existing socket on a RFC, plasterboard walls so you put in a single dry lining box for a DP switch or SFCU and drill through to outside behind the box, how do you earth the armour at that termination ? Yes I know you could terminate into a box outside but why create another unnecessary connection when you can earth the armour at the other end ? Or you could have an insulated CU to take your SWA from with no space around it for an additional connection box and no way of drilling a 20mm hole into it.

 

[netblindpaul]

The EAWR does not apply to a domestic installation.

Spin, that is incorrect.
Read the requirements of Reg 3, then look at HASAWA, Reg 3, and come back and tell me that EAWR does not apply to domestic work, and explain your defence against these laws.

 

[Octopus]

I have a vague memory of a reg somewhere that stated it should be earthed at at least one end and 'preferably' the supply end.

It’s not in the BYB .... possibly in a guidance note .... but that’s only guidance..... and not many people buy the guidance notes ... in fact I suspect fewer people are buying the big books , and fewer still actually read the incoherent regulations .....

 

[Colin33]

It should a earthed or connected to the same earthing system as used by the protective device protecting the SWA.

Does this statement suggest that it can be connected to whatever earthing arrangement exists at the origin OR alternatively, connected to a separate earthing arrangement at the load end?

 

[netblindpaul]

As you have disagreed Murdoch, and you will not accept that you are wrong.
Please read these quotes, verbatim, straight from the LAW of the land.
EAWR89 & HASAWA74.

EAWR89:
Persons on whom duties are imposed by these Regulations
3.—(1) Except where otherwise expressly provided in these Regulations, it shall be the duty ofevery–
(a)
employer and self-employed person to comply with the provisions of these Regulations inso far as they relate to matters which are within his control; and
(b)
manager of a mine or quarry (within in either case the meaning of section 180 of the Minesand Quarries Act 1954(2)) to ensure that all requirements or prohibitions imposed by orunder these Regulations are complied with in so far as they relate to the mine or quarry orpart of a quarry of which he is the manager and to matters which are within his control.
(2) It shall be the duty of every employee while at work–
(a)
to co-operate with his employer so far as is necessary to enable any duty placed on thatemployer by the provisions of these Regulations to be complied with; and
(b)
to comply with the provisions of these Regulations in so far as they relate to matters which are within his control.

HASAWA74:
3 General duties of employers and self-employed to persons other than their employees.


(1) It shall be the duty of every employer to conduct his undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that persons not in his employment who may be affected thereby are not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety.

(2) It shall be the duty of every self-employed person who conducts an undertaking of a prescribed description to conduct the undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that he and other persons (not being his employees) who may be affected thereby are not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety.

(2a) A description of undertaking included in regulations under subsection (2) may be framed by reference to—

the type of activities carried out by the undertaking, where those activities are carried out or any other feature of the undertaking;

whether persons who may be affected by the conduct of the undertaking, other than the self-employed person (or his employees), may thereby be exposed to risks to their health or safety.

(3) In such cases as may be prescribed, it shall be the duty of every employer and every self-employed person, in the prescribed circumstances and in the prescribed manner, to give to persons (not being his employees) who may be affected by the way in which he conducts his undertaking the prescribed information about such aspects of the way in which he conducts his undertaking as might affect their health or safety.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Does this statement suggest that it can be connected to whatever earthing arrangement exists at the origin OR alternatively, connected to a separate earthing arrangement at the load end?

If the SWA was feeding a separated TT installation then clearly the conductive part of the SWA would be earthed from the supply (TN) end,and electrically separated from the earthing arrangement at the load end..

 

[Octopus]

As you have disagreed Murdoch, and you will not accept that you are wrong.
Please read these quotes, verbatim, straight from the LAW of the land.
EAWR89 & HASAWA74.

EAWR89:
Persons on whom duties are imposed by these Regulations
3.—(1) Except where otherwise expressly provided in these Regulations, it shall be the duty ofevery–
(a)
employer and self-employed person to comply with the provisions of these Regulations inso far as they relate to matters which are within his control; and
(b)
manager of a mine or quarry (within in either case the meaning of section 180 of the Minesand Quarries Act 1954(2)) to ensure that all requirements or prohibitions imposed by orunder these Regulations are complied with in so far as they relate to the mine or quarry orpart of a quarry of which he is the manager and to matters which are within his control.
(2) It shall be the duty of every employee while at work–
(a)
to co-operate with his employer so far as is necessary to enable any duty placed on thatemployer by the provisions of these Regulations to be complied with; and
(b)
to comply with the provisions of these Regulations in so far as they relate to matters which are within his control.

HASAWA74:
3 General duties of employers and self-employed to persons other than their employees.


(1) It shall be the duty of every employer to conduct his undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that persons not in his employment who may be affected thereby are not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety.

(2) It shall be the duty of every self-employed person who conducts an undertaking of a prescribed description to conduct the undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that he and other persons (not being his employees) who may be affected thereby are not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety.

(2a) A description of undertaking included in regulations under subsection (2) may be framed by reference to—

the type of activities carried out by the undertaking, where those activities are carried out or any other feature of the undertaking;

whether persons who may be affected by the conduct of the undertaking, other than the self-employed person (or his employees), may thereby be exposed to risks to their health or safety.

(3) In such cases as may be prescribed, it shall be the duty of every employer and every self-employed person, in the prescribed circumstances and in the prescribed manner, to give to persons (not being his employees) who may be affected by the way in which he conducts his undertaking the prescribed information about such aspects of the way in which he conducts his undertaking as might affect their health or safety.

Hum .... no where in that lot does it say the earthing must be attached at the supply end .......

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Spin, that is incorrect.
Read the requirements of Reg 3, then look at HASAWA, Reg 3, and come back and tell me that EAWR does not apply to domestic work, and explain your defence against these laws.

I did not say the EAWR does not apply to domestic work.
I said the EAWR does not apply to a domestic installation.

 

[Dave OCD]

Ok this is all very well and could go on for weeks but please quote the exact wording of the exact regulation that clearly states armour must be earthed at the supply end.

Edit - reply to post #57.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Does this statement suggest that it can be connected to whatever earthing arrangement exists at the origin OR alternatively, connected to a separate earthing arrangement at the load end?

It should be connected to the same earthing system as the protective device which protects the SWA cable is connected to.
It should not be connected to a separate earthing system.

 

[netblindpaul]

I did not say the EAWR does not apply to domestic work.
I said the EAWR does not apply to a domestic installation.

It does though, if you, read, the law, the installation is under the control of the installer, thus the installation is under the control of the installer, ergo, EAWR applies.

 

[netblindpaul]

Ok this is all very well and could go on for weeks but please quote the exact wording of the exact regulation that clearly states armour must be earthed at the supply end.

Edit - reply to post #57.

EAWR89:
Earthing or other suitable precautions
8.Precautions shall be taken, either by earthing or by other suitable means, to prevent danger arising when any conductor (other than a circuit conductor) which may reasonably foreseeably become charged as a result of either the use of a system, or a fault in a system, becomes so charged;and, for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this regulation, a conductor shall be regarded as earthed when it is connected to the general mass of earth by conductors of sufficient strength and current-carrying capability to discharge electrical energy to earth.

 

[Colin33]

If the SWA was feeding a separated TT installation then clearly the conductive part of the SWA would be earthed from the supply (TN) end,and electrically separated from the earthing arrangement at the load end..

So are you suggesting that the swa would need to be terminated in a separate enclosure before entering a metal consumer unit ( TT earthed) in an outbuilding for example?

 

[Dave OCD]

Which says NOTHING about where the earthing must be carried out, therefore you are wrong. Reply to post #64

 

[Dave OCD]

So are you suggesting that the swa would need to be terminated in a separate enclosure before entering a metal consumer unit ( TT earthed) in an outbuilding for example?

Or you could possibly connect straight in with an alternative gland.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

It does though, if you, read, the law, the installation is under the control of the installer, thus the installation is under the control of the installer, ergo, EAWR applies.

No, the installation is under the control of the householder.
The installer bugged off ages ago and is probably installing other installations, or on here wondering where people get such weird ideas from.

 

[netblindpaul]

No, the installation is under the control of the householder.
The installer bugged off ages ago and is probably installing other installations, or on here wondering where people get such weird ideas from.

You are missing the point the doing of the installation is under the control of the "electrician" no matter where they have been since or after, that job was under their control, they were at work, thus, EAWR & HASAWA applied at that time.
Employed or Self-Employed both apply.

 

[Colin33]

It should be connected to the same earthing system as the protective device which protects the SWA cable is connected to.
It should not be connected to a separate earthing system.

So you may end up with a metal consumer unit connected to a TT arrangement with a Zs of up to 1667 ohms for example, fitted adjacent to a metal adaptable box to which the swa is terminated with a Zs of perhaps .35 ohms. Is that right?

 

[Octopus]

You are missing the point the doing of the installation is under the control of the "electrician" no matter where they have been since or after, that job was under their control, they were at work, thus, EAWR & HASAWA applied at that time.
Employed or Self-Employed both apply.

And you are missing the point.

Where is the reg about connecting the SWA at the supply end ?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

You are missing the point the doing of the installation is under the control of the "electrician" no matter where they have been since or after, that job was under their control, they were at work, thus, EAWR & HASAWA applied at that time.
Employed or Self-Employed both apply.

Sorry you are getting confused about what it is the Regulations apply to.
To put it in simple terms, the ground does not have to comply with HASAWA.
If a worker then digs a hole in the ground, that task must comply with HASAWA.
Electricity does not have to comply with the EAWR.
How you use electricity when conducting a task for work must comply with the EAWR.
An installation in a building which is not used for work purposes does not have to comply with the EAWR.
How you use the electricity provided by that installation when conducting a task for work must comply with the EAWR.
An installation in a building that is a place of work, must comply with the EAWR.
How you use the electricity (irrespective of whether it is for a task of work) provided by the installation, must also comply with the EAWR.
Compliance with the EAWR can in many respects be achieved by compliance with BS7671.

 

[netblindpaul]

Sorry you are getting confused about what it is the Regulations apply to.
To put it in simple terms, the ground does not have to comply with HASAWA.
If a worker then digs a hole in the ground, that task must comply with HASAWA.
Electricity does not have to comply with the EAWR.
How you use electricity when conducting a task for work must comply with the EAWR.
An installation in a building which is not used for work purposes does not have to comply with the EAWR.
How you use the electricity provided by that installation when conducting a task for work must comply with the EAWR.
An installation in a building that is a place of work, must comply with the EAWR.
How you use the electricity (irrespective of whether it is for a task of work) provided by the installation, must also comply with the EAWR.
Compliance with the EAWR can in many respects be achieved by compliance with BS7671.

No, you are wrong, not me.
Look at HASAWA, and this is NOT just my view point.
3
General duties of employers and self-employed to persons other than their employees.
So how does this NOT apply to householders when the install is crap and endangers them.
The install is done by employers or their employees, thus by the employer, or the self-employed.
The house holder is a person that is someone other than an employee, and the installation does not comply with EAWR, ergo an offence under HASAWA S3.

 

[johnduffell]

there are two threads of conversation - the smaller one is about which earthing system you can connect to. I have pinched the typed up version of the reg but the answer is it has to be the same earthing system as the installation containing the protective device
"542.1.3.3 [...]if the protective conductor forms part of a cable, the protective conductor shall be earthed only in the installation containing the associated protective device."

 

[netblindpaul]

Sorry you are getting confused about what it is the Regulations apply to.
To put it in simple terms, the ground does not have to comply with HASAWA.
If a worker then digs a hole in the ground, that task must comply with HASAWA.
Electricity does not have to comply with the EAWR.
How you use electricity when conducting a task for work must comply with the EAWR.
An installation in a building which is not used for work purposes does not have to comply with the EAWR.
How you use the electricity provided by that installation when conducting a task for work must comply with the EAWR.
An installation in a building that is a place of work, must comply with the EAWR.
How you use the electricity (irrespective of whether it is for a task of work) provided by the installation, must also comply with the EAWR.
Compliance with the EAWR can in many respects be achieved by compliance with BS7671.

So if this is true and the installation does not comply with EAWR, how does the installer comply with HASAWA Reg 3?

 

[Octopus]

there are two threads of conversation - the smaller one is about which earthing system you can connect to. I have pinched the typed up version of the reg but the answer is it has to be the same earthing system as the installation containing the protective device
"542.1.3.3 [...]if the protective conductor forms part of a cable, the protective conductor shall be earthed only in the installation containing the associated protective device."

But it still doesn't say which ends it should be connected ....

 

[Octopus]

there are two threads of conversation - the smaller one is about which earthing system you can connect to. I have pinched the typed up version of the reg but the answer is it has to be the same earthing system as the installation containing the protective device
"542.1.3.3 [...]if the protective conductor forms part of a cable, the protective conductor shall be earthed only in the installation containing the associated protective device."

But it still doesn't say which ends it should be connected ....

 

[telectrix]

there are two threads of conversation - the smaller one is about which earthing system you can connect to. I have pinched the typed up version of the reg but the answer is it has to be the same earthing system as the installation containing the protective device
"542.1.3.3 [...]if the protective conductor forms part of a cable, the protective conductor shall be earthed only in the installation containing the associated protective device."

but the argument is not about earthing the protective conductor, is it? it's about earthing the armour when said armour is not used as cpc.

 

[netblindpaul]

So, EAWR requires that any conductor that may become "inadvertently charged" must be suitably earthed, my wording, the original is earlier in the thread.
If, EAWR does not apply to installations under BS 7671 why is this contained there in?
The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) welcomes the publication of BS 7671:2018, Requirements for Electrical Installations, IET Wiring Regulations 18th Edition. BS 7671 and the IET/IEE Wiring Regulations have been extensively referred to in HSE guidance over the years. Installations which conform to the standards laid down in BS 7671:2018 are regarded by HSE as likely to achieve conformity with the relevant parts of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989. Existing installations may have been designed and installed to conform to the standards set by earlier editions of BS 7671 or the IEE Wiring Regulations. This does not mean that they will fail to achieve conformity with the relevant parts of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

So if this is true and the installation does not comply with EAWR, how does the installer comply with HASAWA Reg 3?

What installer?