It has to be vague because there is no time to write a 5,000 page document defining each and every little tiny detail !!!!!

In the olden days... we had a thing called "Common Sense"... but that was officially banned under the Blair/Brown years when they introduced the concept that you are entitled to do whatever you want, unless there's a specific law against it.
It wouldn’t need 5000 words to include the self employed in a document already drawn up for employed people would it????
common sense it exactly what I’ll be applying in my socially distanced working life thanks @Zerax...I’ve always read and liked your posts mate but I’m not looking for your approval on this...
 
Terrible language from our PM, nowhere near definitive enough.

But we all know now what we should be doing for the good of everyone. Individuals choices will dictate future outcomes of all types.

I have now abandoned work unless an emergency, but I won't be telling others what they should do. There are enough facts available for them to make that decision.

As an aside, rumours are now circulating about a bill passed for self employed workers to get 80% of average monthly income based on the last three years returns for up to three months. But i'm off to bed now and will check in the morning.
 
These are the only sectors that should be at work. Utilities is as close as we get but thats of course for supply to a property (DNO)
I am stopping my guys as of tonight apart from essential necessary works eg loss of power or potentially dangerous situations. Feel we have a duty to do our bit to prevent the spread of this virus to customers, public and staff.
(This post isn't specifically directed at the person I'm quoting above, please don't take it that way, it's just a useful example)

This (the two images in the post) is the list of occupations that count as "key workers" right? Came out last week, as the guidance for those who can - if there's no alternative - use schools as day-care. It's a useful list. We know who the key workers are. Important jobs. No doubt.

We also know there is a desperate need to slow down the spread of the virus, so we don't all get ill at once, so the NHS has got a cat in hell's chance of coping the best it can. Important decisions, from everyone.

How to do this?

The Government has the answer (no, stay with me!). Anything in red below is from the current (23/3/20) guidance (source: Full guidance on staying at home and away from others - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others) Anything in bold is my own emphasis as it's relevant to this discussion:

There are 3 measures, to help the reduce the speed of the spread of the virus, to help the NHS cope, to reduce fatalities:


  1. Requiring people to stay at home, except for very limited purposes
  2. Closing non-essential shops and community spaces
  3. Stopping all gatherings of more than two people in public

Every citizen must comply with these new measures.



Alright, that's quite firm but also a bit woolly, what does that mean exactly? What does "very limited purposes" mean?


1. Staying at home

You should only leave the house for one of four reasons:


  • Shopping for basic necessities, for example food and medicine, which must be as infrequent as possible.
  • One form of exercise a day, for example a run, walk, or cycle - alone or with members of your household.
  • Any medical need, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person.
  • Travelling to and from work, but only where this absolutely cannot be done from home.


The 4th bullet point doesn't mention key workers, or critical sectors. It doesn't say, "Travelling to and from work, but only where the work is absolutely necessary." It only says, "... where this abosolutely cannot be done from home."

Alright, so let's say I've got a job weaving novelty headgear for poodles; I think we can all agree it's not really top of the list in the fight against the coronavirus, and quite frankly the less novelty headgear there is for poodles in the world, the better. I apparently can't do this at home, because the machine that makes novelty headgear for poodles weighs about 3 tons and won't fit in my home office. But suppose I really love my job, and want to carry on doing it. Can I?

These four reasons are exceptions - even when doing these activities, you should be minimising time spent outside of the home and ensuring you are 2 metres apart from anyone outside of your household.

Ah, right. So if I can do my job - and that includes "travelling to and from work" - I should be minimising time spent outside of the home and ensuring I'm 2m apart from anyone outside my household."

These measures must be followed by everyone. Separate advice is available for individuals or households who are isolating, and for the most vulnerable who need to be shielded.


In fact workers in critical sectors are mentioned in the next paragraph:

If you work in a critical sector outlined in this guidance, or your child has been identified as vulnerable, you can continue to take your children to school.

So there is no distinction between key workers, and those with other jobs, except for the aspect of being allowed out to take your kids to school if you need to. However, if your job cannot be done from home, "you should be minimising time spent outside of the home and ensuring you are 2 metres apart from anyone outside of your household."

What else can we do?



2. Closing non-essential shops and public spaces

Last week, the Government ordered certain businesses - including pubs, cinemas and theatres - to close. The Government is now extending this requirement to a further set of businesses and other venues, including:


  • all non-essential retail stores - this will include clothing and electronics stores; hair, beauty and nail salons; and outdoor and indoor markets, excluding food markets.
  • libraries, community centres, and youth centres.
  • indoor and outdoor leisure facilities such as bowling alleys, arcades and soft play facilities.
  • communal places within parks, such as playgrounds, sports courts and outdoor gyms.
  • places of worship, except for funerals attended by immediate families.
  • hotels, hostels, bed and breakfasts, campsites, caravan parks, and boarding houses for commercial/leisure use (excluding permanent residents and key workers).

Ok, good to know. Possibly not as relevant for this discussion, unless you work in one of those locations. And the third measure?


3. Stopping public gatherings

To make sure people are staying at home and apart from each other, the Government is also stopping all public gatherings of more than two people.


There are only two exceptions to this rule:


  • where the gathering is of a group of people who live together - this means that a parent can, for example, take their children to the shops if there is no option to leave them at home.
  • where the gathering is essential for work purposes - but workers should be trying to minimise all meetings and other gatherings in the workplace.

In addition, the Government is stopping social events, including weddings, baptisms and other religious ceremonies. This will exclude funerals, which can be attended by immediate family.

So stopping all gatherings of more than 2 people, except "where the gathering is essential for work purposes - but workers should be trying to minimise all meetings and other gatherings in the workplace." Again, no distinction between key workers in critical sectors, and those who do other jobs (but can't work from home).

I'm not arguing the point one way or another. My key points are:


  • Think critically. This includes working out a hierarchy of credible sources of information. At the moment I'd say written advice from .gov.uk trumps twitter feeds, news outlets, facebook posts, posts on this forum. Of course, those other sources can help interpret sources of greater credibility - they can also (inadvertantly, or on purpose) tint them with their own view, and that view is likely to be well-meaning.
  • Try to do your best. Think about others, and consider their circumstances. Try and work it out. Let's try to muddle through this as best we can, and support each other.
  • Be kind. Just because you should. :)
 
It's a matter of opinion.
In actual fact, this could be very ambiguous.
Think of the difference of someone travelling on London underground, as with the situation today, hundreds in close proximity of one another.
On the other hand, someone working alone from a van in a large outdoor expanse or a completely empty property.
On which have the PM and advisors based their decision?
I think it's a common sense thing, weighing up the risks and the consequences.
Unfortunately, this is where many are lacking.
 
Businesses to remain closed, and exceptions:
Via: Further businesses and premises to close - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/further-businesses-and-premises-to-close

To summarise part of the document:

Business or premises to remain closed:

"All retail with notable exceptions"

Exceptions:

"Supermarkets and other food shops, health shops, pharmacies including non- dispensing pharmacies, petrol stations, bicycle shops, home and hardware shops, laundrettes and dry cleaners, bicycle shops, garages, car rentals, pet shops, corner shops, newsagents, post offices, and banks."



Bicycle shops! Brilliant! :)

"Home and hardware shops." - is this what we call "the big sheds"? B&Q? Screwfix? Mayhaps, the electrical wholesalers?
 
1) I'd rather be a poor dad than a dead dad (and I'd rather have frowning customers than customers I've put into hospital)
2) Customers can wait for their light fitting to be replaced
3) I have to home school now (and yes, I'd rather work. Although I now appreciate teachers more!)
4) I'm not hanging around in the hope of a call out where I'd have to charge them £££ to cover my bills cos they're the only jobs I'm takin

Yup, I'm signing on to universal credits! The good days are a coming o_O

(but if they ask me everyday if I'm searching for jobs then... Suicide!)
 
So. Is that it? We can’t leave the house for non essential work? At all?
Nice and clear from bojo, what defines essential work? I’ve not been told that my site has been closed yet and as far as I’m concerned if I’m earning money to support my family then this is essential work!
 
Stay safe folks. Both Mrs FA and I are both self-employed now and confused like others re the current directions. Well up the creek without a panel financially at the moment! Real catch 22 situation as ideally we all need to batten down the hatches into isolation. Put in an application to do some work back with the Rozzers, other than that lots of DIY on the horizon.
 
Providing news and information to the public, especially when the country is scared, confused and searching for answers IS AN ESSENTIAL SERVICE.

However, the technology exists for a news reader to take home a camera and microphone to present this news from there lounge, dining room or even there garden.
Take home a blue screen and the public may not even know they are not in the studio.

They should be leading by example and doing everything they can to distance themselves from others.

For the record, I am now only taking on jobs that are in my opinion essential.
I.e food production facilities, medical equipment manufacturing. Etc.
 
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Sat In my front living room and I’ve already seen one neighbour, carpet fitter, go to work essential?.......a scaffolder and I’ve just received a text from an electrical distributor saying my parcel will be delivered today...
 
Just going out in a vehicle is irresponsible for non-essential trips. Should you have an accident the police, paramedics and hospital staff could be involved leaving obvious consequences.
 
Apparently there was clarification last night, on the ‘only travel to work if it’s absolutely essential’ ambiguity, in that it applies to workers listed on the key worker list issued last week. Whilst that list does contain some possible confusion over how far the work within utility trades extends, I feel the key worker list will be updated as the situation evolves! Maybe not relevant but American states are updating their key worker lists state by state and are now including plumbers, heating engineers, electricians etc. I’m going to await updates to the key worker list and ‘stay at home’ guidance, in the meantime the empty house I’ve been working at is going to be made safe and remain empty until there are further guidance updates! I don’t want to be a contributory factor to the further spread of this chaos.
 
Just going out in a vehicle is irresponsible for non-essential trips. Should you have an accident the police, paramedics and hospital staff could be involved leaving obvious consequences.
canb't go anywhere in mine at the mo. both fuel tank straps have broke yesterday, causing the tank to fall about 5", held on only by the filler hose and other attachments. made a temp. repair to 1 last night using some 2" galv. trunking lid, cut, bent and drilled. going to fabricate the other one today. normally i don't fill more than 50%, can't see the benefit of all that extra weight, but yesterday filled it up. extra weight was too much for the straps which had corroded. lucky it didn't drop to road level. cost of a new tank and 12 gallons of diesel would break the bank. not to mention the possibility of sparks igniting the diesel. talk about going out in a blaze of glory. o_O. then again, would save familt the cost of cremation. ( a bit poor humour, but if we can't joke in the current climate, may as well give up now ).
 
Diesel needs to vaporize before ignition takes place. This is done by heating it sufficiently to cause this or create a fine spray which in both cases introduces oxygen to the mix. Unlike petrol which vaporizes at normal temperature which is why it is so volatile diesel is stable under normal conditions. Throw a match into diesel it will put the match out in fact if you can avoid the vapours from petrol it will also put it out as liquids do nor burn due to the absence of oxygen. Lesson over :)
 
i know all about that. just that if tank had rubbed on road with diesel splilling out, who knows how hot the sparks could get. hot enough, maybe not, but i don't think i want to try the experiment.
 
Diesel needs to vaporize before ignition takes place. This is done by heating it sufficiently to cause this or create a fine spray which in both cases introduces oxygen to the mix. Unlike petrol which vaporizes at normal temperature which is why it is so volatile diesel is stable under normal conditions. Throw a match into diesel it will put the match out in fact if you can avoid the vapours from petrol it will also put it out as liquids do nor burn due to the absence of oxygen. Lesson over :)
No wonder the Niceic assessor wants to be away within 10 minutes of the assessment ;)
 
i know all about that. just that if tank had rubbed on road with diesel splilling out, who knows how hot the sparks could get. hot enough, maybe not, but i don't think i want to try the experiment.
High chance with petrol but diesel you would need a unique set of circumstances, vaporization, oxygen and an ignition source.
 
i know all about that. just that if tank had rubbed on road with diesel splilling out, who knows how hot the sparks could get. hot enough, maybe not, but i don't think i want to try the experiment.
I think you should... but don't forget to tell us all how it goes... preferably with video/pics.
 
I think you should... but don't forget to tell us all how it goes... preferably with video/pics.
bad enough i'll be crawling under jacked up van fitting repair. at my age, no problem getting under. it's getting back up that's where i sqirm round like a fish out of water. still, better than watching daytime TV.
 
Didn’t you call out a professional to fix your car, @telectrix ?

well, I’ll have to take the dog out for a long walk soon. Youngest is having a piano lesson via online, and won’t get on very well with the howling
 
Refer to the fire triangle which gives the elements for a fire to start. Heat, fuel and oxygen remove any of these you have no fire. This is how fire suppression works, water removes heat and most other methods removes oxygen.
 
Didn’t you call out a professional to fix your car, @telectrix ?

well, I’ll have to take the dog out for a long walk soon. Youngest is having a piano lesson via online, and won’t get on very well with the howling
phoned the garage that we use. he said to get it there and if they were still open i could leave it there and they'd try and get parts. fat chance of that. leave the van and walk 8 miles back home. then walk 8 miles to collect, that's if they manage to fix it. (mrs.Tel can't drive atm. recovering from surgery on broken kneecap. ).
 
kitchen power is essential. got to have somewhere to keep the mrs occupied else all those unfinished DIY jobs will be nagged about.
 
From the BBC News web site;

Businesses that will not need to close include supermarkets, petrol stations, post offices, launderettes, bike shops, pet shops, hardware stores and banks.

Mr Gove said all major construction work should go ahead but jobs carried out at close quarters in someone's home would not be appropriate.

London Mayor Sadiq Khan criticised that approach, saying too many people had been given "key worker" status, including construction workers.’

 
i can't for the life of me see that buying bikes is essential.
 
So the Welsh business arm of the Welsh government... "We are launching some webinars with information to help your business in this crisis"... you'd kind of think the first one would be about accessing the financial aid, but no... hey, let's diversify... how diversification can help your business.

What business??? Without financial aid, my business won't exist for very much longer.

Unbelievable... so out of touch with reality it's untrue.
 
Could always open a cycle repair shop. Joking aside this is having a huge impact on nearly everyone in society.
 

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