Your going to laugh lads!!!!!!! NVQ3 - Domestic!!!!!

[Electricalserv]

I love this little statement from Napit and this is going to ruffle a few feathers.

For those choosing the qualification route, the Level 3 NVQ Certificate in Installing, Testing and Ensuring Compliance of Electrical Installation Work in Dwellings should be available from the 1st January 2012 as the minimum qualification level for Qualified Supervisors responsible for electrical work carried out in domestic properties which comes under Part P of the Building Regulations (for England and Wales).


My bold!!!!

NVQ3 - for domestic premises will be available from 2012.

Looks like the City & Guilds NVQ3 now has a little sister.

 

[Des 56]

Does anybody actually believe that any of the schemes (who all rely on registering members for their finances)that they would uphold any standard that would curtail their numbers, with the consequence their justification for existence would be less evident

It would be like a condemned man checking his noose was tight enough

It will change nothing,it all needs scrapping

 

[Spudnik]

They might be starting to reach saturation point though.

 

[Electricalserv]

Thats why they are bringing in this NVQ3 - Domestics. Afterall why should somebody who does domestic work and only requires to be with a scheme because of this have to sit an NVQ3 that requires use of tray and basket work.


I think this is a great idea from the schemes. You do domestic work you only need a domestic NVQ3. Excellent!

 

[oldtimer]

I know I keep saying this but we should be making the system simple but yet again the tail(s) are wagging the dog ie NIECE Select Napit ECA are doing a jobsworth and making a ham of it

 

[Johnny-G]

I think this is a great idea from the schemes. You do domestic work you only need a domestic NVQ3. Excellent!

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but it is a good idea if it ensures that new QS have a better level of competency than the current requirements & if this qualification helps towards that, then great

 

[Spudnik]

It has to help, as the requirements to even enrol on this course is work placement?

 

[Electricalserv]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but it is a good idea if it ensures that new QS have a better level of competency than the current requirements & if this qualification helps towards that, then great

I'm not being sarcastic. Its a great idea.


If you are part of a scheme that only exists because of PART P then they have no right to only allow people in that posess a qualification (nvq3) that goes well off the domestic sector with the likes of motors, baskets and tray!

 

[JD6400]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but it is a good idea if it ensures that new QS have a better level of competency than the current requirements & if this qualification helps towards that, then great

It would be nice to think it is the case , but i am afraid i am very cynical when it comes to some of our governing body's and how we seem to be just cash cows !
I personally know of one napit member that went on their crash course for the 17th and 2391 that both myself and my other director would have put money on him failing like he did on his independent pat testing coarse !?
He obviously passed but did the 2391 before his 17th , now i all ways thought you needed to be up to date with the rest before being allowed to sit the 2391 ?

 

[Spudnik]

Surely there will be no crash course for the NVQ3 as there are on-site assessments?

 

[JD6400]

Hi Jason
I would hope so but i ain't about to hold my breath anymore !:cyclist:

 

[Electricalserv]

Its all swings and roundabouts atm.


Personally if the domestic NVQ3 comes in Il be a happy bunny. Yes you must be in the industry still and yes it should be done over a year.


The reason why this works is the fact that the domestic sector can now move away from the commercial and Industrial and have its own approved domestic electricians.

If I remember rightly the JIB are bringing out doemstic electricians cards? Maybe this qual is the one thats been set up. Fingers crossed!

 

[Electricalserv]

If I am right in what I see/read from the passage. This can only improve the domestic sector. I think the Level 3 tech cert may also be needed to gain this qual and rightly so. It will (for a while) keep the fast track lads out. (Those that have not already slipped under the radar already, that is). No doubt they will find a loop hole again.

If the assessors governing the new qual do their job right the domestic industry will only go upwards in regards to competency!


The heavy commercial & Industrial sector is well governed to be fair.

 

[ezzzekiel]

another load of rubbish a version of the nvq3 will be introduced which will be a two week crash course and cost about a £1000 making them more money whilst still diluting the trade.

 

[Electricalserv]

another load of rubbish a version of the nvq3 will be introduced which will be a two week crash course and cost about a £1000 making them more money whilst still diluting the trade.

Hold up EZZ. We can only wait & see.


If its a proper NVQ3 done over a year with a portfolio, we can't complain. I agree to do it you will need the tech cert (theory) to go with it.


Its exactly what the domestic industry has been crying out for. Il say it again and again. As domestic sparks we need to be approved in our area. Tray and basket work doesn't fall under our description aswell as many other things on the current NVQ3. Get an NVQ3 that focuses directly on our sector and everybody is happy!

 

[Engineer54]

Its all swings and roundabouts atm.


Personally if the domestic NVQ3 comes in Il be a happy bunny. Yes you must be in the industry still and yes it should be done over a year.


The reason why this works is the fact that the domestic sector can now move away from the commercial and Industrial and have its own approved domestic electricians.

If I remember rightly the JIB are bringing out doemstic electricians cards? Maybe this qual is the one thats been set up. Fingers crossed!

Here we go, .....It's not going to be long, before you need to be certified for every area within the electrical industry!!! Your dividing yourselves, Do you really think that's a good idea, ...you don't think that you'll be cutting your own throats in the process?? No-one heard of the old saying ''Divide & Rule??

Why not set a higher minimum qualification and training standard for ALL electricians??

 

[Electricalserv]

Here we go, .....It's not going to be long, before you need to be certified for every area within the electrical industry!!! Your dividing yourselves, Do you really think that's a good idea, ...you don't think that you'll be cutting your own throats in the process?? No-one heard of the old saying ''Divide & Rule??

Why not set a higher minimum qualification and training standard for ALL electricians??

This is it though E54. If you don't require Tray, Basket work etc etc. Why should you have to do a qualification that encorporates that to be a member of a PART P scheme? Part P is domestic only, therefore you should only be assessed on domestic work!

 

[Engineer54]

This is it though E54. If you don't require Tray, Basket work etc etc. Why should you have to do a qualification that encorporates that to be a member of a PART P scheme? Part P is domestic only, therefore you should only be assessed on domestic work!

Basically because as i stated many times before, an Electrician should be able to work across the industry at a basic level, the fact that you or anyone else is presently working in the domestic sector is neither here nor there. Dividing up the industry, will play straight into the employers open arms, and you will all pay for it. Once you divide, i can tell you, ....it will be impossible to reverse!!!

 

[Engineer54]

In a nutshell, ...the present training given to electricians is directly aimed at the domestic sector from what i can see. The industry seems to have done, and doing nothing to rectify the matter either. There should be a minimum standard for ALL electricians not just the domestic installer. That title is just a made up meaningless title, created by others for their monetary benifit, to the detriment of the industry as a whole, not least Electricians themselves.


Your letting these providers tear the industry apart with all these buckshee qualifications. There should be one and only one, institute, that sets and assesses qualifications. That's the only way everyone sitting such qualification gets a fair grade and the industry a standard level of proficiency.... end of rant!! lol!!

 

[sma_cafc]

This is only a bad thing. An electrician should be an electrician. One set of qualifications across the board

 

[oldtimer]

It would be nice to think it is the case , but i am afraid i am very cynical when it comes to some of our governing body's and how we seem to be just cash cows !
I personally know of one napit member that went on their crash course for the 17th and 2391 that both myself and my other director would have put money on him failing like he did on his independent pat testing coarse !?
He obviously passed but did the 2391 before his 17th , now i all ways thought you needed to be up to date with the rest before being allowed to sit the 2391 ?

Dont be puzzled by this as you know if our govering bodies had an ounce of integrity they would say no instead of saying he or she who pays gets a coconut or in other word a pass into electrics and to think we used to slag off our eastern european cousins because they would buy a dodgy trade card and this country had to accept it now sadly we are no better

 

[JD6400]

Not to take sides but Engineer 54 is right .
In my opinion a trained sparks should be able to hold their own in all sectors , this also means knowing when to seek advice when not 100% sure .
As for dividing the industry , being a employer myself if i were that way inclined its giving me the perfect tool to batter wages down " sorry mate i know your know your stuff but you ain't got all the tickets so heres a peanut "!

 

[Electricalserv]

If you guys cannot see this as being a good thing I don't know what can happen in the industry that will be.


Its the domestic sector which has been hit by these 5 day courses, not industrial or commercial.


By introducing a domestic NVQ3 with the 2330 tech cert or whichever it is now. Spread over a year on-site portfolio and only allowing this for entry plus 17th & 2391 you are stopping the 5DW or at least slowing them down.

It boils down to - if you are making it NVQ3 as minimum to work on domestic premises then the only substance you have for this is to provide a NVQ3 for domestic only. Because As domestic sparks we can't put tray work or basket work into our portfolio because we don't do it.


If you can't see this as a good idea for all parties involved in Part P I don't know what you will.


Its the JIB & Unions seperating the industry by asking for the NVQ3 for a gold card. If you work on doemstic you don't need it!

 

[sparks_114]

I always said the industry was on the verge of being segmented and if the said is true then we're looking in that direction. As for me I have to vehemently disagree with this new line of qualification. How would that leave sparks who are working across all three sectors (domestic, commercial, industrial), are we going to have to take a separate qualification for each sector?! Let the baseline qualification be one, and if needs be have higher grade courses for those wanting to specialise in inspection and testing (2391-10), design (2391-2), PV (still preliminary), high voltage etc. take the relevant courses. This is more or less the current setup, not only with the electrical industry but largely with teaching (and other professions I am sure) as well where a degree is achieved and depending on where you wanted to teach (primary, secondary, higher education) you'd do your relevant PGCE. They might be moving the goalpost further and there surely is a difference between domestic and industrial electrics but, at the same time, there is a good deal of knowledge which is transferable from one to the other so I can't understand why a divide.

 

[Electricalserv]

I always said the industry was on the verge of being segmented and if the said is true then we're looking in that direction. As for me I have to vehemently disagree with this new line of qualification. How would that leave sparks who are working across all three sectors (domestic, commercial, industrial), are we going to have to take a separate qualification for each sector?! Let the baseline qualification be one, and if needs be have higher grade courses for those wanting to specialise in inspection and testing (2391-10), design (2391-2), PV (still preliminary), high voltage etc. take the relevant courses. This is more or less the current setup, not only with the electrical industry but largely with teaching (and other professions I am sure) as well where a degree is achieved and depending on where you wanted to teach (primary, secondary, higher education) you'd do your relevant PGCE. They might be moving the goalpost further and there surely is a difference between domestic and industrial electrics but, at the same time, there is a good deal of knowledge which is transferable from one to the other so I can't understand why a divide.

No you would take the City & Guilds Qual which covers all three

 

[Dcf]

Agree with dp and 54.a sparks should b able to turn his hand and understand the basics of domestic,commercial and industrial installation.It will go the same way as the plumbing where u need seperate tickets for gas,oil and lpg diluting that trade into specialised sub trades.This has an effect of driving ur rates downAnother bit of short term thinking that has long term consequences methinks

 

[Engineer54]

If you guys cannot see this as being a good thing I don't know what can happen in the industry that will be.


Its the domestic sector which has been hit by these 5 day courses, not industrial or commercial.


By introducing a domestic NVQ3 with the 2330 tech cert or whichever it is now. Spread over a year on-site portfolio and only allowing this for entry plus 17th & 2391 you are stopping the 5DW or at least slowing them down.

It boils down to - if you are making it NVQ3 as minimum to work on domestic premises then the only substance you have for this is to provide a NVQ3 for domestic only. Because As domestic sparks we can't put tray work or basket work into our portfolio because we don't do it.


If you can't see this as a good idea for all parties involved in Part P I don't know what you will.


Its the JIB & Unions seperating the industry by asking for the NVQ3 for a gold card. If you work on doemstic you don't need it!

Then why not let this NVQ3 or it's equivalent, be the minimum standard for All electricians,including domestic. At least then you may get these so called training centre's and courses, actually training electricians properly, instead of just pumping out those, only capable of working in the domestic sector. If something isn't done about the present levels of training standard, then it's not going to be too long before you see, well trained foreign electricians being imported to take up those positions that Brit sparks are no longer capable of filling!!! What an embarrassment that would be???

 

[Electricalserv]

Is it not a true statement though that if we sign upto these schemes because of PART P work (Domestic only) They have no right to set a criteria that asks you to gain a qualification that includes assessments that have nothing to do with the Part P sector as the only way to get in.


I think its an ace idea. The JIB split the industry by asking for the NVQ3. They are now bringing out a domestic electrician card.

 

[nikmet]

This is it though E54. If you don't require Tray, Basket work etc etc. Why should you have to do a qualification that encorporates that to be a member of a PART P scheme? Part P is domestic only, therefore you should only be assessed on domestic work!

why not split it even more into 'new build' and 'existing buildings' ???? You need to look at the bigger picture, its dumbing down of the electrician ..................with lower rates to follow no doubt????

 

[Electricalserv]

why not split it even more into 'new build' and 'existing buildings' ???? You need to look at the bigger picture, its dumbing down of the electrician ..................with lower rates to follow no doubt????

Rates won't go down for domestic sparks. We live in our own world, rates aren't governed like a JIB commercial & industrial spark. We charge what we like. Our rates gone down since the domestic installer came along so it can't get any worse if competancy will be proven!

 

[Engineer54]

I think that being totally selfish on your part mate!!.... There are plenty of companies out there, that are employing electricians to work solely in the domestic sector. It's not just made up of sole traders such as your self....

 

[Electricalserv]

Found it JIB Domestic Electricians Gold Card.

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Page 3 is what we are looking at. New NVQ3 qualification

 

[millwall ken]

Isn't this just going to split the industry even further?

 

[alarm man]

diet spark that,rates will go down,then you have a two tier electrician,and wait for the customers saying how much,the lad down the road can do it half that and he's a proper spark..and what about those who will be employed,they will get less than other sparks,which will then drive down rates further,employers will send domestic sparks to big sites to save money,quality goes down etc,etc,etc

 

[Electricalserv]

This is the JIB bringing it out aswell!

 

[millwall ken]

diet spark that,rates will go down,then you have a two tier electrician,and wait for the customers saying how much,the lad down the road can do it half that and he's a proper spark..and what about those who will be employed,they will get less than other sparks,which will then drive down rates further,employers will send domestic sparks to big sites to save money,quality goes down etc,etc,etc

Deffo don't like this idea mate - it definately has the potential to cause a two-tier trade. For God's sake theres' no money in the domestic game as it is. I can't see how this will do anything to drive up prices, although it is a good step towards driving up perceived levels of competence. We're have to wait and see what they come out with before passing judgement on the actual qualification.

 

[Electricalserv]

Ken I think people are over reacting here. If the JIB are on board aswell then it will be them and only them who drop the wages and form a 2 tier! Which I doubt. If anything they will put it the same as JIB wages

 

[Engineer54]

Too may hands stretched out to bleed you lot dry, all trying to divide and rule, Get shot of all of them and and get that ''National Register of Electricians''
As a Registered Electrician, you won't need Scam Providers, you won't need the JIB, or any other body to ply your trade for remuneration!! You will be Qualified Registered Tradesman in your own right!!!

 

[i=p/u]

and how would we attack these people, how will we get are way engineer 54, your a man with expierience help us, be our guide to sucess and rule out these croney money grabbing schemes, what do we need to do and when do we need to do it..

or you could all work for cash in hand ... or put prices up to go through books and pay these schemes

 

[millwall ken]

If you guys cannot see this as being a good thing I don't know what can happen in the industry that will be.


Its the domestic sector which has been hit by these 5 day courses, not industrial or commercial.


By introducing a domestic NVQ3 with the 2330 tech cert or whichever it is now. Spread over a year on-site portfolio and only allowing this for entry plus 17th & 2391 you are stopping the 5DW or at least slowing them down.

It boils down to - if you are making it NVQ3 as minimum to work on domestic premises then the only substance you have for this is to provide a NVQ3 for domestic only. Because As domestic sparks we can't put tray work or basket work into our portfolio because we don't do it.


If you can't see this as a good idea for all parties involved in Part P I don't know what you will.


Its the JIB & Unions seperating the industry by asking for the NVQ3 for a gold card. If you work on doemstic you don't need it!

I understand what your saying; and your fears mate, and I wouldn't trust those sneaky b******s at Chicken JIBlets further than I could throw them. The saying 'devide and rule' could of been thought up with them in mind. However I still don't like the idea of seperate qualifications for seperate fields.