A new energy source-maybe--maybe-not

[justcurioustwo]

I am bringing this drawing back into the discussion just to ask one last question.
In the drawing there are twelve (12) buckets on the right side. Just for discussion each bucket has a lifting force of 100-foot pounds. 12 buckets times 100 = 1200-foot pounds of lifting force.
1200-foot pounds of lifting force can produce more energy at any one moment in time than 100-foot pounds;
Once all the buckets are full and this machine is running, the process continues to produce 1200-foot pounds of force if you continue to fill one (1) bucket at the bottom in sequence with the rest.
YES or NO?

 

[static zap]

...I am aware that the SeaEngine is a long shot but at least I’m trying.
You can’t fault me for that

Our future ,needs :-
Fresh innovation , plenty of money for Fusion and A nuclear industry less fixated/blinkered on ..weapons grade plutonium $£$£
We best stop eating horses !

 

[davesparks]

Fossil fuel as our major energy provider is ending. Your grandchildren will not be driving gasoline powered cars.

I won't have any grandchildren as I dont,and won't, have any children.

The human race is destroying the planet, whatever new energy sources we come up with will only lead to further destruction of the planet in one way or another.

The best thing we can do for the planet now is stop producing more humans.

 

[DPG]

I won't have any grandchildren as I dont,and won't, have any children.

The human race is destroying the planet, whatever new energy sources we come up with will only lead to further destruction of the planet in one way or another.

The best thing we can do for the planet now is stop producing more humans.

Still, it's nearly Christmas Dave so keep your spirits up

 

[justcurioustwo]

The point of this is twofold.

• First this may lead to a new energy source
• The calculations needed are for real engineers/electricians to solve

There are a great number of variables that need to be explored before coming up with the final ya/na conclusion
I was hoping that there would be a few here who were up to the challenge.
I tried this on another forum named “ENG-TIPS” but before I could get in a word edgewise, I was banned for trying.
The least you folks could do is ignore this forum. Let me come back from time to time a mumble a few words then I will go.
My doctor told me that discussions like this a heathy whereas stopping people on the street to se what they may think of this is a bad idea.
So I ask, let me mumble to myself here.
Thanks in Advance
Attached is the drawing

 

[justcurioustwo]

here is another look at the gizmo
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This is not a PMM. All I am doing is converting one form of energy into another. In this case it is mechanical energy into electrical energy.
SeaPower description
Attached is a diagram that details a new energy generating power source using the expanding rise of air underwater as a lifting force.
This is the same principal that keeps a boat afloat.
In the diagram, there is a linear row of balloons. The lower balloon or inverted umbrella; is injected with 300 cubic feet of air compressed to 18 ATM resulting in a volume of 16.66 cubic feet of air.
When the first balloon rises 99 feet (3 ATM) a second balloon attached to the first one is injected with 300 cubic feet of air compressed to 16.66 cubic feet of air.
In the diagram provided this process is repeated having five (5) balloons rising. The upper balloon at 3 ATM has a lifting force of 6.400 pounds
The next balloon at 6 ATM has a lifting force of 3,200 pounds
The next balloon at 9 ATM has a rising force of 2,133 pounds
The next balloon at 12 ATM has a lifting force of 1,600 pounds
The next balloon at 15 ATM has a lifting force of 1,080 pounds
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total pulling force is a continuous lifting force of 14,413 pounds
This mechanical process can be converted to electrical output.
If it takes less power to keep the system running than the output created; then this is a positive idea. If not; this is a dead horse with nowhere to go.

 

[DPG]

The 'continuous lifting force' is not free energy. I still don't see where the driving force is available without external influence. It still seems like the many examples of over-unity machines to me.

 

[Dan]

As above. It defies Newton's law.

 

[static zap]

Does at least make me think about any deep sea , bubbling gas (of any type) sources ,and a reward for concentrating and gathering them ! ..Hopefully not a consequence of fracking .. or failed Carbon storage !
( Storing high pressure CO2 , can later be processed into a usable fuel if energy is available to convert it )

 

[ElectroChem]

If it takes less power to keep the system running than the output created; then this is a positive idea. If not; this is a dead horse with nowhere to go.

I'm going to go with option B here.

The sheer number of PM/FE ideas that boil down to "Extract energy from working fluid as it moves from a HP to LP reservoir, use {some value less than 100%} of that energy to pump the fluid back to the HP side" suggests some intuitive disconnect with how people think of moving energy states. Some just can never wrap their head around losses and equivalences.

ed: spelling

 

[Megawatt]

I'm going to go with option B here.

The sheer number of PM/FE ideas that boil down to "Extract energy from working fluid as it moves from a HP to LP reservoir, use {some value less than 100%} of that energy to pump the fluid back to the HP side" suggests some intuitive disconnect with how people think of moving energy states. Some just can never wrap their head around losses and equivalences.

ed: spelling

Where’s @Lucien at when you need him

 

[justcurioustwo]

HOW IT WORKS
I would build the thing to prove it works but to do that it would have to be built full scale, in the ocean as advertised. You can’t make a scaled model, it wouldn’t work.
A three-dimensional computer model would work if it was programed to operate with the same parameters as the real thing including depth and sea pressure; ATM’s and it would have to operate in real time..
For every ATM in depth (33') an air bubble is compressed to half its size.
This also works in the reverse. An air bubble with a radius of 10 FT at 15 ATM's will expand to twice its size (r=20) at 14 ATM's.
Principles to run the machine
There are a few basic principles that you cannot deny.
[1] an enclosed container (X) of air submerged in water has a lifting force (Y) equal to the volume of the water displaced minus the weight of the container; [yes] [no]
[2] connection multiple containers one on top of the other creates a combined lifting force of (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)
Which is a greater lifting force than (Y); [yes] [no]
[3] the energy needed to fill one container is equal to the energy needed to sustain the combined lifting force of the 10 (ten) containers referenced above minus the energy needed to keep it running.
; [yes] [no]

 

[static zap]

The issue has to be ,the energy needed to compress air so it wishes to come out of the end of the pipe -Deep under sea.

 

[Dan]

Is the energy being used to fill the containers coming from the energy gained from the containers rising?

If so, those two are going to be equal and fall under Newton's third law.

If one of them requires more energy the other will.

 

[static zap]

These threads always make me think of doc from back to the future. I imagine his shed/lab from the first one.

I blame some of my "Tinkering" on Chutty bang bangs Caractacus Pots untidy lab .. (and my bad hoarding habits)
A piece of lead (pb) will always come in usefull !
..Most interesting bits getting banned-unhealthy..

 

[justcurioustwo]

Is the energy being used to fill the containers coming from the energy gained from the containers rising?

If so, those two are going to be equal and fall under Newton's third law.
If one of them requires more energy the other will.

For every ATM in depth (33') an air bubble is compressed to half its size. This also works in the reverse. An air bubble with a radius of 10 FT at 15 ATM's will expand to twice its size (r=20) at 14 ATM's. Principles to run the machine

There are a few basic principles that you cannot deny.
[1] an enclosed container (X) of air submerged in water has a lifting force (Y) equal to the volume of the water displaced minus the weight of the container;
[yes] [no]
[2] connection multiple containers one on top of the other creates a combined lifting force of (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y)+ (Y) Which is a greater lifting force than (Y);
[yes] [no]
[3] the energy needed to fill one container is equal to the energy needed to sustain the combined lifting force of the 10 (ten) containers referenced above minus the energy needed to keep it running. ;
[yes] [no]

 

[littlespark]

As one fictional Scotsman once said
“Ya cannae change the laws o’ physics!”

 

[static zap]

As one fictional Scotsman once said
“Ya cannae change the laws o’ physics!”

But quantum mechanics has made "observing" things pretty confusing !
( Sorry Sci-fi fans: there is no transparent aluminum -metal )

 

[justcurioustwo]

Someone please respond to post #51
Thanks in advance

 

[static zap]

Multiple containers will produce more lifting force , but also more drag ,that will also worsten the faster things operate.
(I disagree with scale mode -as using a chilled gas will get plenty of expansion ,as the free energy this system harvests is actually taking heat from the sea ,to let gas expand.
(expanding gas needs heat from somewhere to accomplish it's expansion ) -- So buckets / baloons need to be thermally conductive !

 

[justcurioustwo]

Multiple containers will produce more lifting force , but also more drag ,that will also worsten the faster things operate.
(I disagree with scale mode -as using a chilled gas will get plenty of expansion ,as the free energy this system harvests is actually taking heat from the sea ,to let gas expand.
(expanding gas needs heat from somewhere to accomplish it's expansion ) -- So buckets / baloons need to be thermally conductive !

The balloons expand as they rise as well

 

[justcurioustwo]

Does at least make me think about any deep sea , bubbling gas (of any type) sources ,and a reward for concentrating and gathering them ! ..Hopefully not a consequence of fracking .. or failed Carbon storage !
( Storing high pressure CO2 , can later be processed into a usable fuel if energy is available to convert it )

Below are gases spewing out of a vent along the mid atlantic ridge.
there are thousands of them

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Below is an old version of one of my failed ideas

 

[justcurioustwo]

The bubble expands, but doesn't contain any more air, it is just less compressed.

It's the volume of air that is displacing an equal volume of water that counts. Yes, it is less compressed which displaces more water giving it more lifting force.
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The best thing we can do for the planet now is stop producing more humans.

The Israeli’s have already realized this and for the past decade have been murdering as many Palestinians children as they can get away with in order to limit the growth of the Palestinian population.

The IDF is hell bent on achieving this ungodly goal.

I digress, this is not a topic to be discussed here.
Let's get back to potential renewable energy sources; OK-?

 

[Baddegg]

Not sure what your particular brand of crazy is my good man but I do admire you’re total dedication to it ???

 

[justcurioustwo]

I wrote a computer program that allowed the user to impute values such as interest rate and value growth over time. I did this in order to compute the return on my SS tax deposits against investing this money in a bank savings account. This was a Better Basic program that allowed imputing these values. Windows no longer supports this program, so I am looking for a similar program that I can impute values in order to compute the return on my seaengine; based on different conditions and output.

Can someone here suggest such a program-?

 

[DPG]

I wrote a computer program that allowed the user to impute values such as interest rate and value growth over time. I did this in order to compute the return on my SS tax deposits against investing this money in a bank savings account. This was a Better Basic program that allowed imputing these values. Windows no longer supports this program, so I am looking for a similar program that I can impute values in order to compute the return on my seaengine; based on different conditions and output.

Can someone here suggest such a program-?

Any spreadsheet can easily do the financial calculations you mention. Even the entry level ones.

 

[justcurioustwo]

Any spreadsheet can easily do the financial calculations you mention. Even the entry level ones.

Does this “spreadsheet” allow input of values and then you can see the calculated results?

If so, then please recommend a computer program

 

[DPG]

Does this “spreadsheet” allow input of values and then you can see the calculated results?

If so, then please recommend a computer program

Absolutely, yes. Microsoft Excel is a mainstream example, but there are many open-source, ie. free ones available.

 

[justcurioustwo]

Absolutely, yes. Microsoft Excel is a mainstream example, but there are many open-source, ie. free ones available.

Thanks for your input. I will find and use this program to further my research.
again, thanks
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Absolutely, yes. Microsoft Excel is a mainstream example, but there are many open-source, ie. free ones available.

I found the program, but my malware virus protection blocked it from loading. In the next few day’s I’ll go to a computer store and buy it.
thanks for your input.

 

[DPG]

Thanks for your input. I will find and use this program to further my research.
again, thanks
[automerge]1584905081[/automerge]

I found the program, but my malware virus protection blocked it from loading. In the next few day’s I’ll go to a computer store and buy it.
thanks for your input.

You should be able to download a freeware one from a reputable site OK. Sourceforge is often a good starting point.

 

[SparkyChick]

Thanks for your input. I will find and use this program to further my research.
again, thanks
[automerge]1584905081[/automerge]

I found the program, but my malware virus protection blocked it from loading. In the next few day’s I’ll go to a computer store and buy it.
thanks for your input.

Google have an online spreadsheet that is pretty powerful and you can get OpenOffice I think it's called which also has a very good spreadsheet application in it.

 

[DPG]

Yes, Open office would be good.

 

[justcurioustwo]

When I think of a spreadsheet I think of rows and columns

How can I convert my model into a running version to determine its efficiency in energy input against output-?

 

[SparkyChick]

At the most basic level, in each cell of a spreadsheet you can have a number or a formula. Formula in Excel can be incredibly simple, adding two cells together for example (say you want to add cell A1 to cell B1, the formula in Excel would be "=A1+B1") or very complex allow you to handle logical functions such as IF, AND, OR etc.

Do a google search for "OpenOffice Calc Formula" (without the quotes) and you should get some good links for tutorials and guides about using them.

 

[DPG]

When I think of a spreadsheet I think of rows and columns

How can I convert my model into a running version to determine its efficiency in energy input against output-?

You asked for software which allowed you to perform calculations on value that were entered. A spreadsheet is ideal for this.

I assumed you knew which calculations you needed to perform.

 

[Baddegg]

You asked for software which allowed you to perform calculations on value that were entered. A spreadsheet is ideal for this.

I assumed you knew which calculations you needed to perform.

This fella is starting to sound a lot like me ?

 

[justcurioustwo]

Thank you all for your contributions. Now that I understand the value of a spreadsheet, I still have a few details I will need before I can get the results I need.

I know the relationship between the size of an air bubble under different pressures.

I also know the lifting force of displaced water as in the lifting force that keeps a boat afloat.

What I don’t know is the speed of the rising bubbles which I believe is an increasing speed.

The output power will be a function of the drag put upon the rising force. If drag (X) is the amount of resistance that stops the rising force, then I need drag (X) minus some value less than drag (X) that allows the system to continue to rise. This drag will slow down the speed. The difference between its maximum speed potential and the drag applied to it will equal the useful energy from the system.

I have no idea how the create a spread sheet to determine its output power with so many unknown variables involved.

In short, I am dwelling about a system that I am unqualified to be contemplating.

This concept is better left to others to consider.

bye

 

[justcurioustwo]

One last look at an old idea made new-----

 

[justcurioustwo]

I need help in calculating the numbers
Help !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Baddegg]

I think you’re great @justcurioustwo i just wish I knew what you were talking about ?

 

[telectrix]

I think you’re great @justcurioustwo i just wish I knew what you were talking about ?

so does he.