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Discuss Advice required regarding finding a suitable "certifier" when not personally registered in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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I am an old "spark" who is looking to re-enter the industry working self-employed in domestic premises. Can any of you kind folk help with the following.

I am City and Guilds qualified (A and B ) and also have the 17th edition certificate. However due to working in other fields / abroad for many many years I have no chance of becoming "registered" any time soon and therefore I will obviously have issues when completing any work that is notifiable.

However I read the following extract on the net that states, "From April 2014 you will also be able to employ a non-registered electrical installer who has appointed a registered third party certifier to carry out the required inspection and testing of the work both during and on completion."

I would like to hear the views on this from people currently in the trade and also ask if anyone does any work as a "certifier" or where they can be found.

thanks in advance, DB
 

Dan

Admin
Staff member
Wow this is a sore subject I think. I didn't realise there was literature out there advising people that they can find a "certifier" or become one! I'm not an electrician myself so this is all gobbldygook to me. But I think this is frowned upon in most circumstances. Bit of a loophole with regards to whos head goes on the chopper if things go wrong is the way I understood it.

But if it's a case of not being able to get certified yourself, so you need somebody to do it, then there should in theory be businesses going around charging to be your certifier? Not sure.

Welcome to the forum either way. Thanks for asking on here. :)
 

buzzlightyear

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Arms Access
welcome ,you are correct for third party testing ,before I start ist fix ok and then on to second fix ok for the tester to third party testing ,but if the tester finds out wrong then is will cost you much more moneys , so if I was you get the spark in to work with you from 1st fix to end competion, cause when its third party testing and your property or the one you work on goes up in flames the third party testers insurance will not cover that property .
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Chief Engineer Geoff Cronshaw provides clarity on the new Part P third party certification schemes introduced in April this year, and answers some frequently asked questions.

New Part P third party certification schemes for electrical installation work in dwellings were introduced in England on 6th April this year. The bodies that have been authorised to operate schemes are listed on the DCLG website at www.gov.uk/third-party-certification-schemes-for-domestic-electrical-work.
A person registered with one of the schemes will be able to check domestic electrical work undertaken by installers who are not registered with a Part P competent person self-certification scheme (typically DIY work) and certify that the work is compliant with the Building Regulations. Before 6th April, only building control bodies (usually local authorities) could certify work by non-registered installers.
Overview
Part P of the Building Regulations was introduced in England and Wales on 1 January 2005. As part of the government’s commitment to cut red tape, significant changes came into effect in England that:
  • from 6 April 2013 reduced the amount of ’notifiable’ work that must be checked by a building control body unless self-certified by an installer registered with a competent person scheme; and
  • from 6 April 2014 introduced the new third party certification schemes.
All electrical installation work in dwellings must be carried out in line with the technical and procedural rules of Part P of the Building Regulations. This means that:
  • all electrical work, no matter how minor, should follow the rules in BS 7671 for the design, installation, inspection, testing and certification.
  • all notifiable work (certain types of higher risk work specified in the Building Regulations) must be certified as compliant with the Building Regulations.
Installers registered with a Part P competent person scheme are allowed to self-certify that notifiable electrical installation work complies with the Building Regulations. Before 6th April, only building control bodies (local authorities or private, approved inspectors) could certify notifiable work carried out by non-registered installers.
Part P doesn’t just apply to flats and houses. Business premises that have a common metered supply that is shared with a dwelling – for example, shops and public houses with a flat above – are covered too, along with common access areas in blocks of flats and shared amenities such as laundries and gymnasiums. However, if the business unit is separately metered to the dwelling it does not come under Part P.
The legislation also extends to parts of installations in or on land associated with dwellings. This would include fixed lighting, pond pumps in gardens, photovoltaic panels on roofs, or a supply to outbuildings such as sheds, detached garages and greenhouses.
A clear distinction has to be made between residential accommodation that is a place of work – such as university halls of residence and residential care homes – and dwellings. University halls of residence and residential care homes do not come under Part P but are covered by the Electricity at Work Regulations and would be subject to HSE investigations in the event of an incident. The building control body will be able to confirm whether Part P of the Building Regulations applies in a specific case.
The Building Regulations now define notifiable work more simply as the installation of a new circuit or consumer unit, or any addition or alteration to an existing circuit in a special location. For the purposes of the Building Regulations, a special location is essentially defined as the space within the zones in a room containing a bath or shower (see figures 1, 2 and 3), or as a room containing a swimming pool or sauna heater. Additions and alterations to existing circuits outside special locations, and replacements (other than consumer units) and repairs anywhere, are not notifiable. The building control body will be able to confirm whether work is notifiable in a specific case.
 

Dan

Admin
Staff member
I thought that but wondered if it was more business related. He kinda needs get going before paying out to sign up to certification schemes? Don't know. I did wonder that though too.
 

Megawatt

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Arms Access
USA Advisor
I thought that but wondered if it was more business related. He kinda needs get going before paying out to sign up to certification schemes? Don't know. I did wonder that though too.
It’s none of my business but in the USA what your saying is called loaning out your license and you would possibly be put jail if something went wrong, permanently loose license and fined in the thousands
 

telectrix

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Arms Access
It’s none of my business but in the USA what your saying is called loaning out your license and you would possibly be put jail if something went wrong, permanently loose license and fined in the thousands
over here, it's basically that a registered electrician oversees the work and then notifies to building control.the whole system here is a mess. driven by profit for schemes like niceic etc., as opposed to quality work.
 

Fitzy

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Arms Access
I was recently speaking to an electrical contractor where I work and he does some occasional private domestic work and he’s not cps registered, as he does very few notifiable jobs. He showed me a copy of his T&C’s where it clearly states (in bold red text) that the ‘home owner/s’ are responsible for all LABC notifications and their associated fees, and he’s never had any problems with either the LABC or his clients over this clause. He’s even had his T&C’s checked by a solicitor who told him to make this clause stand out to anyone reading them.
 
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Dan

Admin
Staff member
Wow. That sounds sketchy. I'm not sure if all lawyers would recommend that.
 
I would like to hear the views on this from people currently in the trade and also ask if anyone does any work as a "certifier" or where they can be found.
Hi David,

I'm too am not registered on a Part-P scheme, but instead use a 3rd part certifier to notify any notifiable work I do.

It's only some (not all) NAPIT and STROMA electricians that are able to offer this service, NICEIC and ELECSA don't do it. You can search the NAPIT website for members offering the service in your area, in theory you should be able to do the same on the STROMA website but I've never been able to get it to work.

When you've found a few, send emails explaining your situation, and ask how much they typically charge for various work. When you have notifiable work coming up, let your 3rd party certifier know in advance. (S)he will probably want to see it at 1st fix, and of course on completion for test/inspect.

It may seem like a bit of pain, but it can work to your advantage. My 3rd party guy is ipressed with my work and now puts a fair bit of work my way.
 

Dan

Admin
Staff member
Hi David,

I'm too am not registered on a Part-P scheme, but instead use a 3rd part certifier to notify any notifiable work I do.

It's only some (not all) NAPIT and STROMA electricians that are able to offer this service, NICEIC and ELECSA don't do it. You can search the NAPIT website for members offering the service in your area, in theory you should be able to do the same on the STROMA website but I've never been able to get it to work.

When you've found a few, send emails explaining your situation, and ask how much they typically charge for various work. When you have notifiable work coming up, let your 3rd party certifier know in advance. (S)he will probably want to see it at 1st fix, and of course on completion for test/inspect.

It may seem like a bit of pain, but it can work to your advantage. My 3rd party guy is ipressed with my work and now puts a fair bit of work my way.
That's a handy service. Thanks for the heads up. :)

Did one of those buy the other out recently? - So I'm thinking there is only one service that offers it now? - Just thinking out loud here.
 

Megawatt

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Arms Access
USA Advisor
Hi David,

I'm too am not registered on a Part-P scheme, but instead use a 3rd part certifier to notify any notifiable work I do.

It's only some (not all) NAPIT and STROMA electricians that are able to offer this service, NICEIC and ELECSA don't do it. You can search the NAPIT website for members offering the service in your area, in theory you should be able to do the same on the STROMA website but I've never been able to get it to work.

When you've found a few, send emails explaining your situation, and ask how much they typically charge for various work. When you have notifiable work coming up, let your 3rd party certifier know in advance. (S)he will probably want to see it at 1st fix, and of course on completion for test/inspect.

It may seem like a bit of pain, but it can work to your advantage. My 3rd party guy is ipressed with my work and now puts a fair bit of work my way.
Is he working under your certifications
 
That's a handy service. Thanks for the heads up. :)

Did one of those buy the other out recently? - So I'm thinking there is only one service that offers it now? - Just thinking out loud here.
I believe NAPIT have bought out STROMA, the 2 services are separate for now. In time, who knows?
 

Dan

Admin
Staff member
Is he working under your certifications
I think it's the other way around. The person posting uses somebody else to regularly certify their work.

Seems like there's some database to search if you're looking for a guy.

I think it's still a bit frowned upon but I kinda get it now. (I'm not an electrician see, so this is new to me too!)
 

telectrix

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Arms Access
megawatt. it's a minefield here. any qualified electrician can certify his work, but in the domestic sector, some works need to be notified to building control. this entails one of 3 options.
1. pay a scheme c. £600 per year.
2. pay building control c. £300 per job.
3. get it overseen by a member of a scheme to notify.

without any of that, no matter how qualified you are, you are breaking the law. however, said law has never been enforced unless something has gone wrong.
 
I think it's the other way around. The person posting uses somebody else to regularly certify their work.

Seems like there's some database to search if you're looking for a guy.

I think it's still a bit frowned upon but I kinda get it now. (I'm not an electrician see, so this is new to me too!)
It's perfectly legit, not a dodgy 'workaround'. The government introduced it in (i think) 2013 as another way of notifying work without directly involving building control.
 

Dan

Admin
Staff member
That's akin to the old Texan Gun rule, putting it in Mega's terms.....?

So you can fire a gun and drive a vehicle whilst drunk, but if you run somebody over, THEN you get done for driving drunk and firing a gun? Or something? I saw that on Top Gear so perhaps that's rubbish lol
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It's perfectly legit, not a dodgy 'workaround'. The government introduced it in (i think) 2013 as another way of notifying work without directly involving building control.
I'm getting clued up on this as I read by the looks of it.

With it being frowned upon, I assumed dodgy.

Our plumbing forum has a similar situation with Gas Engineers employing a dozen people, and only one bloke signing them all off. And never looking over the boilers.

I think that's not legit. And I initially thought it was the same situation with the sparks. But clearly not.
 

Megawatt

-
Arms Access
USA Advisor
Telectrix it’s confusing across the pond I think that it’s so much
megawatt. it's a minefield here. any qualified electrician can certify his work, but in the domestic sector, some works need to be notified to building control. this entails one of 3 options.
1. pay a scheme c. £600 per year.
2. pay building control c. £300 per job.
3. get it overseen by a member of a scheme to notify.

without any of that, no matter how qualified you are, you are breaking the law. however, said law has never been enforced unless something has gone wrong.
Telectrix I didn’t know how things are done sorry to say this but I’ll stay in the USA to much confusion on my end
 
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I'm getting clued up on this as I read by the looks of it.

With it being frowned upon, I assumed dodgy.

Our plumbing forum has a similar situation with Gas Engineers employing a dozen people, and only one bloke signing them all off. And never looking over the boilers.

I think that's not legit. And I initially thought it was the same situation with the sparks. But clearly not.
It's frowned upon if someone who isn't a 3rd party certifier signs off someone else's work, although I'm sure it happens all the time, much like with our cousins over at the plumbing forum. Also, there are a lot of sparks who just don't know about the 3rd party thing, so when they hear it being done they assume it's dodgy.
 

Dan

Admin
Staff member
That's exactly what I thought.

So as a forum, we need to make people aware really. We're seeing threads with grown men arguing over this kinda thing. Even qualified blokes not knowing what they're perhaps already doing is legit. At least in some circumstances perhaps.

A fine line I guess if the other certification companies don't do it too. There must be a reason it's not taken on board by all. And I'm guessing it's down to the certifier not really knowing how the work is really done, behind the scenes, and their name is going against it long term.

So I can see the reasons behind not supporting it perhaps.

But if the government allow it, it's not a forum issue. It's a country issue.
 

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