Amendment now problems later

[cliffed]

Doing a EICR in a college…there have been many over the years, it’s approximately 50 years old & improvement happens every so often.
The new amendment concerning all areas of the installation on support of cables to prevent premature collapse.
This college consists of plastic containment throughout its corridors & on fire exit routes.
My opinion on this maybe a recommendation C3… & noted to whom concerned, this would require major works throughout.
Some of this containment is above false suspended ceilings, most clipped direct to the concrete floor of the above floor & visible, any advice much appreciated

 

[westward10]

Nothing new about cable support in the new amendment.

 

[cliffed]

Agree, nothing mentioned in any other EICR’s either, about the supports, but with all the news on the cable containment, should this now be noted…

 

[UNG]

Have you actually checked the plastic containment doesn't have metal clips fitted internally throughout or is the best way forward to put it down as a limitation and as such not verified
A C3 code could leave you looking a bit daft if you haven't verified it throughout and to do that could be very time consuming

 

[westward10]

Agree, nothing mentioned in any other EICR’s either, about the supports, but with all the news on the cable containment, should this now be noted…

It isn't news it needs noting. I tend to take a sample inspection on a site just to check because as above you can't always see it.

 

[cliffed]

Have you actually checked the plastic containment doesn't have metal clips fitted internally throughout or is the best way forward to put it down as a limitation and as such not verified
A C3 code could leave you looking a bit daft if you haven't verified it throughout and to do that could be very time consuming

It’s definitely not compliant

 

[UNG]

It’s definitely not compliant

So you have done a very thorough EICR then, removing all the lids to verify it

 

[cliffed]

So you have done a very thorough EICR then removing all the lids to verify it

Yes its been up for @ least 15 years…

 

[UNG]

Yes its been up for @ least 15 years…

So you are making an assumption on the age of the installation and haven't removed all the containment lids to verify it as it would take a lot of time and risk damaging the plastic containment which often becomes brittle as it ages

 

[cliffed]

So you are making an assumption on the age of the installation and haven't removed all the containment lids to verify it as it would take a lot of time and risk damaging the plastic containment which often becomes brittle as it ages

The college was built in the 60’s, the plastic trunking was fixed to the concrete ceilings, this trunking & plastic conduits are seen in all corridors on 1st floor up to the 3rd floors, & also on fire exit routes from corridors to staircase.
Several EICR have been performed in the years, no mention of this, seeing the importance of premature collapse of wiring systems, what would be the correct assumption to make.
My opinion would be a note & a classification code would maybe Code 2

 

[UNG]

The college was built in the 60’s, the plastic trunking was fixed to the concrete ceilings, this trunking & plastic conduits are seen in all corridors on 1st floor up to the 3rd floors, & also on fire exit routes from corridors to staircase.
Several EICR have been performed in the years, no mention of this, seeing the importance of premature collapse of wiring systems, what would be the correct assumption to make.

An EICR is IMO based on verified fact and not assumption if you cannot verify any aspect of the installation outside of the limitations then it's an FI

My opinion would be a note & a classification code would maybe Code 2

Whether it is a code 2 or an FI both give an Unsatisfactory outcome to the EICR so your dilemma is FI or C2

 

[loz2754]

Several EICR have been performed in the years, no mention of this

Previous EICRs can be useful for comparison purposes, but when doing your own EICR, would it not be essential for such things as the prevention of premature collapse to be verified by inspection, wherever it needs to be applied?

As has been mentioned, it may already be in place, inside the plastic trunking.
If it is found not to be in place, then a C2 would likely be warranted.

If for any reason you're not able to inspect and verify, then an FI, as UNG suggests.

Then a follow up visit would be necessary.

 

[cliffed]

An EICR is IMO based on verified fact and not assumption if you cannot verify any aspect of the installation outside of the limitations then it's an FI

Whether it is a code 2 or an FI both give an Unsatisfactory outcome to the EICR so your dilemma is FI or C2

Definitely pre metal fixings, including all surface mount plastic conduits, plastic saddles no metal ones

 

[cliffed]

Previous EICRs can be useful for comparison purposes, but when doing your own EICR, would it not be essential for such things as the prevention of premature collapse to be verified by inspection, wherever it needs to be applied?

As has been mentioned, it may already be in place, inside the plastic trunking.
If it is found not to be in place, then a C2 would likely be warranted.

If for any reason you're not able to inspect and verify, then an FI, as UNG suggests.

Then a follow up visit would be necessary.

Agree but this EICR will definitely be far different from the others & costly to put right.
I'm obviously not bothered about the consequences regarding the remedials thinking C2 would be the correct code.
All this premature collapse concerning cables is quite hilarious, this relates to cost & speed when the idea of a fast fix seemed great.
Remembering when I first started it was always a metal install, conduit/trunking/tray/micc/Swa etc

 

[Lister1987]

An EICR is IMO based on verified fact and not assumption if you cannot verify any aspect of the installation outside of the limitations then it's an FI

So what about sampling? If we male judgements based on sampling (sockets for example), we are working to assumption, not fact. We can say it would be highly probable based on said sample, either way we aren't using fact when we sample.

We're talking potential deaths here, the fact we still have discussions on premature collapse, the retrospectiveness of regs and what not is frankly, crap.

If your engineering judgement says the place is a potential death trap for firefighters then that should be taken as such - hell; include a copy of the Rule 43 letter from Shirley Towers for reference.

Would we leave insitu VIR? Even through we know damn well that by now it will be life expired based on the fact "it complied at time of install"? Would we hell, we'd strongly advise it gets ripped out and replace sharpish and use regs (and EAWR) to drive the point.

Even if they can't rip it all out, they ought to be able to retrofit to accessible sections and at least reduce the risk

 

[UNG]

So what about sampling? If we male judgements based on sampling (sockets for example), we are working to assumption, not fact. We can say it would be highly probable based on said sample, either way we aren't using fact when we sample.

We're talking potential deaths here, the fact we still have discussions on premature collapse, the retrospectiveness of regs and what not is frankly, crap.

If your engineering judgement says the place is a potential death trap for firefighters then that should be taken as such - hell; include a copy of the Rule 43 letter from Shirley Towers for reference.

Sampling is verifying a fact, the OP's comment that because it's all plastic it must be none compliant and infers that no sampling has been carried out to verify. Some of the jobs I have done 30+ years ago in PVC trunking had the cables secured internally with metal clips but without removing some of the lids to verify you would not know which is the point I was trying to make

Would we leave insitu VIR? Even through we know damn well that by now it will be life expired based on the fact "it complied at time of install"? Would we hell, we'd strongly advise it gets ripped out and replace sharpish and use regs (and EAWR) to drive the point.

If the VIR passed all the required tests how would you justify it's replacement, it's a bit like some on these forums that think 70 year old pyro is past it's best and should be replaced with the inferior FP type cable

Even if they can't rip it all out, they ought to be able to retrofit to accessible sections and at least reduce the risk

These days in some cases it is easier to demolish and new build and take the hit on the environmental impact rather than repair or refurbish

 

[cliffed]

Previous EICRs can be useful for comparison purposes, but when doing your own EICR, would it not be essential for such things as the prevention of premature collapse to be verified by inspection, wherever it needs to be applied?

As has been mentioned, it may already be in place, inside the plastic trunking.
If it is found not to be in place, then a C2 would likely be warranted.

If for any reason you're not able to inspect and verify, then an FI, as UNG suggests.

Then a follow up visit would be necessary.

Sampling is verifying a fact, the OP's comment that because it's all plastic it must be none compliant and infers that no sampling has been carried out to verify. Some of the jobs I have done 30+ years ago in PVC trunking had the cables secured internally with metal clips but without removing some of the lids to verify you would not know which is the point I was trying to make

If the VIR passed all the required tests how would you justify it's replacement, it's a bit like some on these forums that think 70 year old pyro is past it's best and should be replaced with the inferior FP type cable

These days in some cases it is easier to demolish and new build and take the hit on the environmental impact rather than repair or refurbish

Sampling took place & there are no metal fixtures inside the plastic trunking, no metal saddles on the plastic conduits.

 

[Lister1987]

If the VIR passed all the required tests how would you justify it's replacement, it's a bit like some on these forums that think 70 year old pyro is past it's best and should be replaced with the inferior FP type cable.

VIR is known to become brittle over time, there has to come a point where we say its life expired. MICC is less likely to be in such a state after the same duration of time.

Irrespective of what the poster codes it, the client could still get a second opinion either via thr poster's CPS if they're in one or if they feel they're having thier pants pulled down; trading standards under the CPFUT regulations.

Ultimately we'll all sit differently on how much a problem premature collapse is, myself I'd be that person that drives for it to get fixed and fail an install for it as I can put myself in the shoes of the family whose firefighter spouse/kin/sibling has died or been injured getting entangled in cables not properly supported.

"It'll never happen", "that's total overkill", "you can't do that", "<Insert Organisation Here> says its a C3 at worst" are the sorts of responses you'd get but I'd rather have that then something happen, seeing on the news that someone has died and knowing I could have highlighted the hazards and driven for change. I'm not saying those that don't aren't empathic, I'm saying that we all have different levels of engineering judgement and limits of what we are willing to accept.

 

[cliffed]

VIR is known to become brittle over time, there has to come a point where we say its life expired. MICC is less likely to be in such a state after the same duration of time.

Irrespective of what the poster codes it, the client could still get a second opinion either via thr poster's CPS if they're in one or if they feel they're having thier pants pulled down; trading standards under the CPFUT regulations.

Ultimately we'll all sit differently on how much a problem premature collapse is, myself I'd be that person that drives for it to get fixed and fail an install for it as I can put myself in the shoes of the family whose firefighter spouse/kin/sibling has died or been injured getting entangled in cables not properly supported.

"It'll never happen", "that's total overkill", "you can't do that", "<Insert Organisation Here> says its a C3 at worst" are the sorts of responses you'd get but I'd rather have that then something happen, seeing on the news that someone has died and knowing I could have highlighted the hazards and driven for change. I'm not saying those that don't aren't empathic, I'm saying that we all have different levels of engineering judgement and limits of what we are willing to accept.

Agree, I will talk with the estates manager & get his opinions on the Fire holding times on the suspended ceilings, & C2 the surface mount containment.
Maybe advisable to get a Fire Safety report from the Fire Officer, no doubt there will be someone whos responsible for that

 

[westward10]

Ceiling grids cannot be used as cable support. You are over thinking this getting other people involved, Code it and move on.